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Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #409040

Re: velocity and time

From Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com>
Newsgroups sci.physics.relativity
Subject Re: velocity and time
Date 2017-02-13 09:14 -0600
Organization Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID <o7sifo$j2m$1@gioia.aioe.org> (permalink)
References (2 earlier) <a6af61bd-2b55-4293-a7b7-3b0f7265f0e7@googlegroups.com> <o7qja6$1ace$6@gioia.aioe.org> <dca06bd0-54b7-462a-8b7b-891bde2fa8d7@googlegroups.com> <o7sc2f$5l1$2@gioia.aioe.org> <3ed6a78b-68c7-4e64-91a7-88cd41731115@googlegroups.com>

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On 2/13/2017 8:45 AM, Robert Winn wrote:
> On Monday, February 13, 2017 at 6:24:33 AM UTC-7, Odd Bodkin wrote:
>> On 2/12/2017 6:37 PM, Robert Winn wrote:
>>> On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 2:15:53 PM UTC-7, Odd Bodkin wrote:
>>>> On 2/10/2017 2:36 PM, Robert Winn wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, February 10, 2017 at 1:14:52 PM UTC-7, Odd Bodkin wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/10/2017 1:30 PM, Robert Winn wrote:
>>>>>>> To show the difference between the two concepts,
>>>>>> [velocity and speed]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The difference between velocity and speed is simple.
>>>>>> Velocity is a vector and speed is a scalar, in fact the scalar magnitude
>>>>>> of the vector velocity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Vectors have magnitude and direction, and in 3D space specifying a
>>>>>> direction requires two numbers, such as azimuth and elevation angles.
>>>>>> Thus in general in 3D space it requires 3 numbers to specify the vector.
>>>>>> What those numbers represent depends on the coordinate system (or if you
>>>>>> want, the basis vectors chosen). Magnitude, elevation and azimuth are
>>>>>> one possibility. Another set involves x, y, z coordinates, which are the
>>>>>> projections of the vector onto an orthonormal basis vector set. If the
>>>>>> vector is constrained to one dimension, then only one signed number is
>>>>>> needed to specify the vector, and the speed is the absolute value of
>>>>>> that signed number.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In spacetime, by the way, there are four coordinates needed to specify
>>>>>> an event. Again, what those four numbers are depend on the type of
>>>>>> coordinate system chosen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I am aware of that.  The coordinate system I have chosen is the Galilean
>>>>> transformation equations.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Robert, you may or may not be aware that transformation equations are
>>>> not coordinate systems, and so the last sentence above is gibberish. You
>>>> might as well have said that the last car you remember driving was a
>>>> cantaloupe.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables
>>>
>>> Thank you for sharing.  It is very enlightening to know that you do not think that the
>>> Galilean transformation equations are not a coordinate system.  I always thought they were
>>> a coordinate system because that was the way Einstein described them.  So what do you think they are?
>>>
>>
>> They're equations to transform BETWEEN coordinate systems, Robert. They
>> are not coordinate systems.
>>
>> Would you care to quote what you think Einstein said about it?
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables
>
> Yes, I would care to quote.
> "An event, wherever it may have taken place, would be fixed in space with respect to space by
> the three perpendiculars x,y,z on the co-ordinate planes, and with regard to time by a time-valeu t.
> Relative to K', the same event would be fixed in respect of space and time by corresponding
> values x',y',z',t', which, of course, are not identical with x,y,z,t.  IOt has already been
> set forth in detail how these magnitudes are to be regarded as results of physical measurements.

Right. So you see, there are two coordinate systems here: the one with 
coordinates x,y,z, and t, and then the other one with coordinates x', 
y', z' and t'. Up until this point there is no mention of anything 
Galilean at all.

The Galilean transform equations express HOW TO TRANSFORM between the 
two coordinate systems. The Galilean transform equations are not a 
coordinate system themselves. Coordinate systems, by the way, are not 
represented as equations.

I certainly thought you could read and comprehend better than what you 
have just exhibited.

>
> .......(Explanation of Lorentz equations)........
>
> "If in place of the law of transmission of light we had taken as our basis the tacit
> assumptions of the older mechanics as to the absolute character of times and lengths,
> then instead of the above we should have obtained the following equations:
>
>                       x'=x-vt
>                       y'=y
>                       z'=z
>                       t'=t
>
> This system of equations is often termed the "Galilei transformation"."
>
> A. Einstein
>
> So what exactly do you think coordinate systems are?  Einstein says that x,y,z,t and x',y',z',t'
> are coordinates.  Are you saying that you disagree with Einstein?
>

Not at all. It seems that you cannot tell the difference between a 
coordinate system and a transformation between coordinate systems.

All you see is algebra with x, and y, and z, and t and other coordinates 
and you say "Hey, those must be coordinate systems because they have the 
symbols for coordinates in them."

So it appears that you understand even less of the basics than I 
thought. You are more like Seto, just engaging to make noise but not 
having any real idea of what you're talking about.


-- 
Odd Bodkin -- maker of fine toys, tools, tables

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velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-10 11:30 -0800
  Cretin Robert Winn continues to spam "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2017-02-10 11:52 -0800
    Re: Cretin Robert Winn continues to spam Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-10 12:21 -0800
  Re: velocity and time Python <python@python.invalid> - 2017-02-10 21:08 +0100
    Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-10 12:34 -0800
  Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-10 14:14 -0600
    Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-10 12:36 -0800
      Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-12 15:15 -0600
        Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-12 16:37 -0800
          Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-13 07:24 -0600
            Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-13 06:45 -0800
              Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-13 09:14 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-13 08:14 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-15 08:39 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-13 08:21 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-14 06:43 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-14 06:44 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-14 11:25 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-14 13:32 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-14 15:42 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-14 17:58 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Python <python@python.invalid> - 2017-02-15 03:21 +0100
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-14 18:24 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Python <python@python.invalid> - 2017-02-15 03:36 +0100
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-15 08:43 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-15 07:19 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 08:07 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 09:05 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 11:20 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 10:51 -0800
                Re: velocity and time John Gogo <jfgogo22@yahoo.com> - 2017-02-17 18:16 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-15 08:41 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-15 07:16 -0800
    Re: velocity and time John Gogo <jfgogo22@yahoo.com> - 2017-02-10 16:04 -0800
      Re: velocity and time "David (Lord Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-02-10 16:11 -0800
        Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-10 17:09 -0800
      Re: velocity and time John Gogo <jfgogo22@yahoo.com> - 2017-02-10 16:13 -0800
        Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-10 17:11 -0800
          Re: velocity and time "David (Lord Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-02-10 20:36 -0800
            Re: velocity and time "David (Lord Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-02-10 20:40 -0800
              Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-10 22:17 -0800
            Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-10 22:16 -0800
      Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-10 16:59 -0800
        Re: velocity and time John Gogo <jfgogo22@yahoo.com> - 2017-02-10 17:18 -0800
          Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-10 17:36 -0800
  Re: velocity and time dancouriann@gmail.com - 2017-02-10 15:32 -0800
    Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-10 16:57 -0800
      Re: velocity and time dancouriann@gmail.com - 2017-02-10 18:07 -0800
        Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-10 23:03 -0800
          Re: velocity and time stringduality@gmail.com - 2017-02-11 05:38 -0800
            Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-11 07:32 -0800
          Re: velocity and time dancouriann@gmail.com - 2017-02-11 06:30 -0800
            Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-11 07:46 -0800
              Re: velocity and time dancouriann@gmail.com - 2017-02-11 09:41 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-11 10:43 -0800
                Re: velocity and time dancouriann@gmail.com - 2017-02-11 11:51 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-11 12:13 -0800
                Re: velocity and time dancouriann@gmail.com - 2017-02-11 14:36 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-11 21:31 -0800
                Re: velocity and time dancouriann@gmail.com - 2017-02-11 21:52 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-12 07:11 -0800
                Re: velocity and time dancouriann@gmail.com - 2017-02-12 08:38 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-12 10:10 -0800
                Re: velocity and time dancouriann@gmail.com - 2017-02-12 10:42 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-12 16:28 -0800
                Re: velocity and time dancouriann@gmail.com - 2017-02-12 17:30 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-12 23:15 -0800
                Re: velocity and time dancouriann@gmail.com - 2017-02-13 17:12 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-14 06:19 -0800
                Re: velocity and time "David (Lord Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-02-14 07:01 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-14 13:30 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-14 14:28 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-14 18:22 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Python <python@python.invalid> - 2017-02-15 03:42 +0100
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-14 23:08 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Python <python@python.invalid> - 2017-02-15 15:19 +0100
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-15 07:07 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 07:53 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 08:47 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 11:28 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 11:03 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-18 10:57 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-18 13:19 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-18 15:30 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-18 14:54 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-19 14:25 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-18 15:12 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-19 14:42 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-18 11:10 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-18 13:28 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-18 15:32 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-18 15:16 -0800
                Re: velocity and time mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-02-12 23:20 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-13 07:25 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-13 06:47 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-13 09:20 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-13 08:05 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-14 06:43 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-14 06:48 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-14 11:26 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-14 18:01 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-15 14:59 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-15 14:28 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-02-15 20:19 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-16 00:24 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-02-16 05:53 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-16 06:39 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Python <python@python.invalid> - 2017-02-16 16:32 +0100
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-16 11:15 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-02-16 08:07 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-16 11:08 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-02-16 12:09 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Python <python@python.invalid> - 2017-02-16 21:18 +0100
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-16 15:24 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-16 15:22 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-16 06:39 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 08:35 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 09:55 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 12:25 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 11:08 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 13:14 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 14:10 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-18 11:10 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-18 13:34 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-19 14:25 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2017-02-18 09:55 +0100
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-18 06:32 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2017-02-18 16:24 +0100
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-18 09:02 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Python <python@python.invalid> - 2017-02-18 18:10 +0100
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-18 13:47 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Python <python@python.invalid> - 2017-02-19 04:44 +0100
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-18 22:59 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-02-19 04:51 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-19 07:30 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Gary Harnagel <hitlong@yahoo.com> - 2017-02-19 10:06 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-19 11:11 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Python <python@python.invalid> - 2017-02-19 15:47 +0100
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-19 07:32 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Python <python@python.invalid> - 2017-02-19 16:53 +0100
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-19 11:02 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2017-02-18 18:36 +0100
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 10:50 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 13:17 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 13:19 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 14:11 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Python <python@python.invalid> - 2017-02-17 21:01 +0100
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 14:13 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Python <python@python.invalid> - 2017-02-18 00:35 +0100
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 18:55 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Python <python@python.invalid> - 2017-02-18 04:09 +0100
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 21:09 -0800
                Re: velocity and time John Gogo <jfgogo22@yahoo.com> - 2017-02-17 18:35 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 19:01 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Python <python@python.invalid> - 2017-02-18 04:13 +0100
                Re: velocity and time John Gogo <jfgogo22@yahoo.com> - 2017-02-17 18:37 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Python <python@python.invalid> - 2017-02-18 04:03 +0100
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-17 19:08 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-19 14:25 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-12 15:47 -0600
                Re: velocity and time Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-12 15:46 -0600
  Re: velocity and time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2017-02-11 07:46 -0800
    Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-11 07:55 -0800
      Re: velocity and time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2017-02-11 09:01 -0800
        Re: velocity and time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2017-02-11 09:08 -0800
        Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-11 10:31 -0800
          Re: velocity and time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2017-02-11 12:15 -0800
            Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-11 20:54 -0800
              Re: velocity and time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2017-02-12 08:51 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-12 10:12 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2017-02-12 12:06 -0800
                Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-12 16:35 -0800
  Re: velocity and time numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2017-02-11 15:04 -0800
    Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-11 21:46 -0800
  Re: velocity and time numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2017-02-11 15:05 -0800
  Re: velocity and time numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2017-02-12 11:31 -0800
    Re: velocity and time Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-12 16:31 -0800

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