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Groups > comp.lang.c > #102047

Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done?

From David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done?
Date 2017-01-17 16:00 +0100
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <o5lbfr$spk$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (7 earlier) <81c89a92-ff50-445c-bdef-8e9e2a915799@googlegroups.com> <o5kkf0$hpl$1@dont-email.me> <1202e0d3-d4e0-4693-a5ce-357700757692@googlegroups.com> <o5l6pt$c3h$1@dont-email.me> <39157dd8-afc2-4197-a0cc-bd5f91282d90@googlegroups.com>

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On 17/01/17 15:41, supercat@casperkitty.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 7:40:53 AM UTC-6, David Brown wrote:
>> On 17/01/17 14:14, supercat wrote:
>>> Microchip's early so-called "C" compilers worked that way, but none of the
>>> versions of Keil I used ever did.
>>
>> Microchip's early compilers were appalling - huge prices for a tool that
>> could not manage an array of structs or a struct with an array, and
>> required so much hand-optimising of the C code that you might as well
>> write in assembly.
> 
> I used to use the CCS Compiler for the PICs.  Its dialect of C was goofier
> that Microchip's [type "short" being ONE bit!?  C'mon!] but coding for it
> was easier than coding in assembly.  I jumped ship on it when some bugs
> appeared I couldn't code around (if a compiler randomly miscomputes the
> target addresses of jumps there's really not much a programmer can do).
> 
>> I don't know what version of Keil is involved here.  I also don't
>> remeber the details here, and I don't have the tool on my systems to
>> test it.
> 
> Fair enough.  Was it 20+ years ago?

No, it was last year.

>  I did my first major project using
> Keil-51 around 1995.  The compiler had been sold as a "pro" version of
> Archimedes by the makers of that product, but I don't know that there was
> anything different from the ordinary Keil compiler apart from the branding.
> 
>> I don't blame the compiler for generating slow code on the rotten
>> processor architecture that was an outdated design when it was created
>> some 35 years ago.  And it's fair enough that you need compiler
>> extensions and special pointer types to get the best out of the device.
>>
>> But I /do/ blame the compiler for generating incorrect code that does
>> not follow the rules of C.
> 
> If I had noticed such things, I would have shared your view.  All I can
> figure is that you were using a different version than I was.  If that is
> the case, I'm not sure that your views of Keil from back then should
> negatively affect your views of the company today.

It is possible that the compiler in question was a particular fixed
version (for compatibility with the device vendor) rather than the
latest version, but it was not old.

However, I can't give details about either the tool in question or the
bugs found, because I don't remember them and have no way to test them
or reproduce them.

To be fair on Keil, if I had to get a compiler for the 8051 then I would
certainly consider it - I know it is a weird sort-of C, and that it has
bugs, but I also know it generates impressively efficient code and it is
perfectly possible that alternative tools are worse.

> 
>> (I also blame the thoughtless SoC hardware designers that think the 8051
>> is a sane choice of core when they want to add a small cpu to their chips.)
> 
> I hear you on that one.  While Intel made some dubious design choices in the
> 8051, the architecture is reasonably practical for the kinds of things one
> would do in machine language with a microcontroller that only needs 256 bytes
> of RAM.  When I first started working with the 8051 and heard that there was
> a C compiler for it, I found the concept unbelievable given its many disjoint
> forms of memory addressing; when I started programming it in C some years
> later, I was surprised to find it was surprisingly workable (though I suspect
> my background in 8051 assembly language helped a lot).
> 
> As for why SoC vendors would be using it, all I can figure is that it's cheap.
> I have at times wondered, though, what it would take to develop an open-source
> 8-bit core that was better and cheaper, that vendors could use instead.  I
> think the concept of addressing regions is a good thing (and even compilers
> for the ARM could benefit if the ABI would recognize such a thing!) but
> hardware should support a universal-pointer type.

I think it is more a matter of habit than any serious consideration.
And I think the decisions are made by people far removed from the
software people.  It's some project managers saying "this chip could do
with a microcontroller to run the hardware - what could we use?"  "Well,
we used an 8051 core on that last device - lets us it again here."  "Is
it expensive?"  "No."  And that is as far as it gets.

> 
>>> Compiler prices are absurd, and price does not always translate to quality.
>>
>> /Some/ compiler prices are absurd.  Others are quite reasonable, and
>> some are high and yet still good value for money.
> 
> I should have said compiler pricING is absurd.  Some compilers are reasonable,
> and are absurdly cheap, but I can identify no rhyme or reason to how things
> are priced.
> 

Fair enough.

>>> On the other hand, when you say such things shouldn't exist today, what
>>> would you suggest as alternative for writing code for a piece of 8051-based
>>> hardware that already exists?  
>>
>> The "best" choice would depend on the circumstances.  If you have to
>> work with code already designed for Keil, then Keil will be the best
>> choice if you can afford it - because the code is already in Keil-C
>> rather than C.  For an unrestrained choice, then there are alternatives
>> like IAR, Tasking, and of course SDCC.  I have no experience with any of
>> them, and cannot comment on them.
> 
> Never used those, though I found Keil's tools a little nicer than IAR's
> for the ARM.

I only tried IAR's tools for the AVR, long, long ago, and was not hugely
impressed.  But I admit to being a bit fussy :-)

> 
>> But whether or not there are better alternatives, the kind of bug I have
>> had to deal with in Keil 8051 should not be in a modern compiler.  With
>> the prices they charge, they should be expected to have comprehensive
>> test suites and correct behaviour in almost all code.
> 
> Does Keil's 8051 compiler *presently* behave as you describe?

As I say, the problems were during recent development, but I can't say
which tool versions or any details about the problem.  I was not
directly involved, I just helped distinguish between problems in the
source code and problems in the compiler.

> 
>>> The limitations of the 8051 architecture are the fault of Intel, not Keil.
>>> Maybe you had a different version of Keil from what I used, but I had no
>>> complaints about mine.
>>
>> My experience with Keil is mostly limited to helping others determine if
>> the bug is in their code or the compiler, which of course makes me very
>> biased - I have only seen the tool at its worst.
> 
> Another possibility, btw, is that the compiler might offer options for
> things like integer promotions, and people might be using projects where
> they are set in non-standard fashion.  

That is conceivable.  The developers working on it had only limited
control of project build options - it was all generated as part of the
hardware vendor's system.

> I don't remember such an option,
> but if earlier 8051 compilers did not promote, it's possible some production
> 8051 code relied upon such behavior.  Perhaps a project got imported from
> an older compiler with broken promotion rules (but the code for the project
> at the time was set up to deal with them) and the rules were set to be
> compatible with the old compiler.
>

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Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? "Fernando D. Bozzo" <fdbozzo@gmail.com> - 2017-01-15 08:45 -0800
  Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-01-15 16:53 +0000
    Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2017-01-15 09:34 -0800
      Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-01-17 21:09 +0000
        Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2017-01-17 13:45 -0800
          Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2017-01-17 14:09 -0800
          Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-01-17 22:41 +0000
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            Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2017-01-17 16:49 -0800
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              Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-17 20:37 -0800
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-01-18 09:38 +0100
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-31 08:49 -0800
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        Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? "Fernando D. Bozzo" <fdbozzo@gmail.com> - 2017-01-15 15:08 -0800
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            Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-01-16 09:48 +0100
  Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2017-01-15 09:29 -0800
    Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2017-01-15 09:37 -0800
    Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2017-01-15 09:56 -0800
      Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2017-01-15 10:34 -0800
    Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? "Fernando D. Bozzo" <fdbozzo@gmail.com> - 2017-01-15 10:48 -0800
      Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2017-01-15 11:10 -0800
      Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? Jean-Marc Bourguet <jm@bourguet.org> - 2017-01-15 20:22 +0100
        Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2017-01-15 11:50 -0800
        Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? "Fernando D. Bozzo" <fdbozzo@gmail.com> - 2017-01-15 15:12 -0800
  Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2017-01-15 17:50 +0000
    Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? "Fernando D. Bozzo" <fdbozzo@gmail.com> - 2017-01-15 10:38 -0800
      Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2017-01-15 19:34 +0000
        Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-01-15 12:51 -0800
          Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-15 13:10 -0800
            Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-01-15 16:23 -0800
              Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-15 18:08 -0800
            Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-01-16 09:56 +0100
              Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-16 08:35 -0800
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-01-16 11:07 -0800
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-01-16 11:17 -0800
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                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-01-31 22:22 -0800
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-01-17 00:22 +0100
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-16 16:23 -0800
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-01-17 02:04 +0100
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-16 17:27 -0800
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-01-17 09:16 +0100
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            Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-01-16 09:22 -0800
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                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-01-16 15:41 +0000
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-01-16 17:27 +0100
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-16 07:56 -0800
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-01-16 17:31 +0100
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-16 08:48 -0800
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-01-17 00:29 +0100
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-01-16 11:25 -0800
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-16 12:28 -0800
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              Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-01-16 10:23 +0100
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? "Fernando D. Bozzo" <fdbozzo@gmail.com> - 2017-01-16 01:35 -0800
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              Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-16 16:31 -0800
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-01-17 09:27 +0100
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-01-17 12:11 +0000
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-01-17 14:23 +0100
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-17 05:38 -0800
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                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-17 07:09 -0800
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-17 05:14 -0800
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-01-17 14:40 +0100
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-17 06:41 -0800
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-01-17 16:00 +0100
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-17 07:45 -0800
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2017-01-17 08:18 -0800
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2017-01-17 08:27 -0800
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-17 09:29 -0800
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-17 09:23 -0800
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2017-01-17 10:35 -0800
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-17 12:41 -0800
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2017-01-17 13:45 -0800
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-01-17 21:00 -0600
      Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2017-01-15 11:55 -0800
      Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2017-01-15 14:59 -0800
    Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-01-15 20:04 +0000
      Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2017-01-15 21:33 +0100
        Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-15 13:00 -0800
          Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-15 20:27 -0800
        Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-01-15 16:34 -0500
          Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-01-15 16:43 -0500
            Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-01-15 16:17 -0800
              Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-15 20:22 -0800
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-01-15 21:00 -0800
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-30 05:01 -0800
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2017-01-30 11:35 -0800
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-02-01 16:18 -0800
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-02-01 16:37 -0800
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-02-01 23:21 -0600
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-02-02 00:27 -0800
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-02-02 10:58 -0800
                Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-02-03 22:51 -0800
  Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-01-15 15:41 -0800
    Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? "Fernando D. Bozzo" <fdbozzo@gmail.com> - 2017-01-15 15:44 -0800
      Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2017-01-15 16:17 -0800
  Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? Alla _ <modelling.data@gmail.com> - 2017-01-16 01:47 -0800
    Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? "Fernando D. Bozzo" <fdbozzo@gmail.com> - 2017-01-16 01:50 -0800
      Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? Alla _ <modelling.data@gmail.com> - 2017-01-16 02:38 -0800
        Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? "Fernando D. Bozzo" <fdbozzo@gmail.com> - 2017-01-16 03:15 -0800
          Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? Alla _ <modelling.data@gmail.com> - 2017-01-16 03:40 -0800
            Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? "Fernando D. Bozzo" <fdbozzo@gmail.com> - 2017-01-16 04:21 -0800
          Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? Alla _ <modelling.data@gmail.com> - 2017-01-16 04:29 -0800
            Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? "Fernando D. Bozzo" <fdbozzo@gmail.com> - 2017-01-16 04:36 -0800
    Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2017-01-16 11:36 +0000
      Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? Alla _ <modelling.data@gmail.com> - 2017-01-16 03:44 -0800
      Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2017-01-16 15:34 +0000
        Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2017-01-16 16:01 +0000
  Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2017-01-17 10:14 -0800
    Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-01-17 13:21 -0500
      Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2017-01-17 11:43 -0800
        Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2017-01-17 15:07 -0500
      Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2017-01-17 12:24 -0800
    Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? "Fernando D. Bozzo" <fdbozzo@gmail.com> - 2017-01-17 10:24 -0800
    Re: Dinamic array without malloc - Can be done? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2017-01-30 05:21 -0800

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