Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C?

From	David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C?
Date	2016-11-26 01:48 +0100
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<o1am35$o7p$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(5 earlier) <o11mib$57i$1@dont-email.me> <ln8tsbe9j3.fsf@kst-u.example.com> <o121t3$hu6$1@dont-email.me> <o12kve$t1k$1@dont-email.me> <o1akrv$kcl$1@dont-email.me>

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On 26/11/16 01:27, jacobnavia wrote:
> Le 23/11/2016 à 00:40, David Brown a écrit :
>> the ABI for x86-64 requires these sections
>
> Who wrote the ABI?
>
> The gcc folks.
>
> :-)
>

No, I believe the ABI was written by AMD.  They certainly consulted the 
gcc folks, as well as a number of different *nix folks (not just Linux), 
and many others.  It is the ABI used by all x86-64 OS's except Windows.

I doubt if the gcc folks particularly wanted the eh_frame stuff in code 
in C.  But someone decided it was good for interoperability between 
different languages, or good for debugging and tracing, or things like that.

> Why bother with C? Everyone says the same mantra, and c++ goes on
> growing and growing.
>

The gcc folks are very fond of C, even though they have moved to C++ for 
the compiler.  gcc is most at home on *nix, and *nix is most at home 
with C.  And I think few groups anywhere have done more work aimed at 
improving, enhancing and extending C than gcc - a number of their 
enhancements and extensions have ended up in the standards.  (I know you 
work hard at trying to move C forward - unfortunately, you and your 
toolchain are too small to have a serious influence beyond your own users.)

> I should do like everyone else, everyone else tells me but I still do
> not want to acccept "reality" and start complexifying my programs until
> I can't read them.

/I/ don't think you should do like everyone else - I think you should do 
as you feel best.  For my own use, if I want something more than C, with 
features such as operator overloading and a containers library, I will 
go to C++.  Your compiler is never going to be an option for me anyway - 
it is Windows hosted and targeted, and I need to target small embedded 
systems (with cross-platform hosting on Windows and Linux).  But if you 
want to make a tool for an enhanced version of C, and your users want 
that, then that's great - well done.

However, you should not be dismayed that the uptake and enthusiasm for 
your changes is weak amongst most developers and compiler writers.

>
> A big part of this "progress" was done by the gcc team. Growth without
> bounds, leaving Algog-68 WAY back, leaving common lisp WAY back
> achieving levels of complexity so enourmous, that some c++ code needs a
> compiler.
>
> Only a machine can understand that in all its consequences.
>
> I have seen fads come and go. Each one, left a strata of features in
> c++. C, remained the same. That is an advantage and a bug at the same time.

Certainly the stability of C as a language is one of its most important 
assets.  And the progress and improvements in C++ is one of /its/ most 
important assets - I have no doubt that C++11 and C++14 are huge 
advances over C++98 and C++03, and are very much better languages.  C++ 
is big and complicated, C is smaller but with no shortage of subtleties. 
  They are different tools for different purposes, and you should not 
condemn C++ for being an overly complicated superset of C nor C for 
being a severely limited subset of C++.

Thread

C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-11-18 20:34 +0800
  Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-11-18 05:09 -0800
    Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-11-18 21:42 +0800
      Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2016-11-18 11:14 -0800
    Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2016-11-18 11:10 -0800
      Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-11-19 15:26 +0100
        Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-11-19 10:09 -0500
          Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-11-20 13:47 +0100
      Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-11-21 03:25 -0800
        Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-11-21 14:15 +0100
          Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-11-21 05:39 -0800
  Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-11-18 14:26 +0100
    Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-11-18 21:41 +0800
      Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-11-18 15:20 +0100
        Re: conduct in comp.lang.c "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-11-18 22:23 +0800
  Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2016-11-18 15:16 +0100
    Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-11-18 22:20 +0800
      Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2016-11-18 11:18 -0800
    Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-11-18 07:15 -0800
      Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-11-18 16:55 +0100
        Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-11-18 08:31 -0800
          Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-11-18 17:38 +0100
  Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2016-11-18 07:09 -0800
    Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-11-18 07:22 -0800
      Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? Thiago Adams <thiago.adams@gmail.com> - 2016-11-18 07:31 -0800
        Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-11-18 17:04 +0100
  Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-11-18 16:37 +0100
    Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-11-18 23:53 +0800
    Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-11-18 08:00 -0800
      Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-11-18 17:34 +0100
      Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-11-18 09:32 -0800
    Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-11-18 17:09 +0100
      Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-11-18 18:02 +0100
        Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-11-21 03:26 -0600
          Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-11-22 11:11 +0100
            Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2016-11-22 08:55 -0800
            Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-11-25 03:25 -0600
              Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-11-25 10:00 -0800
              Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-11-25 12:30 -0800
                Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-11-26 00:38 +0100
                Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-11-26 10:44 -0800
                Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-11-26 20:44 +0100
                Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-11-26 12:38 -0800
                Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-11-26 21:00 +0100
  Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2016-11-18 11:04 -0800
    Re: [OT] discipline and obedience "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-11-19 22:53 +0800
    Re: C & C++ Committee "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-11-19 22:55 +0800
      Re: C & C++ Committee jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2016-11-19 08:02 -0800
        Re: C & C++ Committee "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-11-20 00:09 +0800
          Re: C & C++ Committee jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2016-11-19 08:35 -0800
            Re: C & C++ Committee fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2016-11-19 08:51 -0800
              Re: Do you write C programs? "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-11-20 01:00 +0800
            Re: C & C++ Committee "Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> - 2016-11-20 00:59 +0800
  Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-11-22 11:14 +0100
    Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-11-22 12:05 +0100
      Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-11-22 14:51 +0100
        Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-11-22 15:50 +0100
          Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-11-22 15:01 +0000
            Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-11-22 08:58 -0800
              Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-11-22 18:08 +0100
              Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-11-22 18:14 +0000
                Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-11-23 08:33 +1300
                Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-11-22 19:42 +0000
                Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-11-23 08:51 +1300
                Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-11-22 12:13 -0800
                Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-11-22 21:35 +0000
                Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-11-23 00:47 +0100
                Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-11-22 12:09 -0800
                Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-11-23 00:40 +0100
                Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-11-26 01:27 +0100
                Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-11-26 01:48 +0100
              Re: C++ forcing unnecessary changes to C? Nathan Wagner <nw@hydaspes.if.org> - 2016-11-24 18:09 +0000

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