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Groups > comp.lang.c > #92982

Re: Default values in #define

From David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: Default values in #define
Date 2016-08-31 12:39 +0200
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <nq6c4e$6rd$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (16 earlier) <nq3t6f$lvh$1@jstuckle.eternal-september.org> <nq41f9$483$1@dont-email.me> <nq46li$ll4$1@jstuckle.eternal-september.org> <nq4n80$iv3$1@dont-email.me> <nq4tuf$b2d$1@jstuckle.eternal-september.org>

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On 30/08/16 23:30, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
> On 8/30/2016 3:36 PM, David Brown wrote:
>> On 30/08/16 16:53, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>> On 8/30/2016 9:24 AM, David Brown wrote:
>>>> On 30/08/16 14:12, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>>> On 8/30/2016 7:21 AM, David Brown wrote:

<snip>

>>>> But these mechanisms can quickly have much more overhead than a simple
>>>> "disable global interrupts, do the job, re-enable interrupt status".
>>>> For small job, such as atomically incrementing a counter, you could be
>>>> talking about hundreds of times larger overhead.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not necessarily. Most systems have atomic operations for something like
>>> incrementing a counter.
>>
>> Most RISC processors do not have any sort of atomic operation for
>> incrementing a counter.  Most CISC processors do (as long as the counter
>> is not too big).
>>
> 
> But any one which has support for multiple threads has some kind of
> atomic operation.

Yes, but in most cases (Alpha, PPC, MIPS, ARM - and probably many others
that I don't know) this is using a load-link or load-reserve and
conditional store mechanism.  There is no atomic operation for counter
incrementing - they have no mechanism for a single read-modify-write
operation.  Rather, you use the LL and SC instructions to make a
sequence of operations atomic.  And since the final SC can fail, you
need a conditional loop.

> 
>>>  After all, similar operations are used to
>>> create mutexes.  And even if not, mutexes locking and unlocking mutexes
>>> is a highly optimized operation in any OS I've seen - often as little as
>>> a half-dozen machine instructions or less, which can generally be
>>> implemented inline via a macro.
>>
>> A half-dozen instructions, often including a loop, is far more than a
>> single instruction.
>>
>> But again, there is a difference between bigger and smaller systems.
>> Small devices usually don't have operations optimised for mutexes, and
>> interrupt disabling is the normal way to do atomic operations.  Bigger
>> devices usually have some way to get fast mutexes or other locks,
>> because you need a more sophisticated locking mechanism when dealing
>> with multiple cores.
>>
> 
> If you are talking about small systems, then they only run the
> equivalent of kernel mode - no separation between kernel and user
> instructions.  So it's quite easy to disable interrupts then re-enable
> them.  Two instructions, typically.

More than that if you want to support restoring interrupt status rather
than enabling interrupts, or if you want to handle multiple priority levels.

> 
>>>
>>>> This is the way it is done on most small systems, and it often forms a
>>>> key part of higher-level synchronisation mechanisms.  It can even be a
>>>> more efficient mechanism on processors with compare-and-swap or
>>>> load-store "reservation" instructions.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, which is how mutexes are locked in such systems.  It's pretty fast.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And even then, it's not possible to disable all interrupts.  Most
>>>>> processors have non-maskable interrupts, which cannot be disabled.
>>>>> These are important for things like a hardware interrupt.
>>>>
>>>> In most cases on small systems, you /can/ disable almost all interrupts.
>>>>   Non-maskable interrupts are rarely used, except perhaps for extreme
>>>> situations (like power-fail interrupts).  Bigger systems may be more
>>>> complicated, of course.
>>>>
>>>
>>> "Almost" is not "all".  And they still have to be considered.  Failure
>>> to do things like this is a common cause of design bugs.
>>>
>>
>> References?  Samples?  Examples?
>>
> 
> Non-maskable interrupt can never be disabled.  See documentation on
> Intel and other chips.

No one said you could disable NMI's - the name "non-maskable" is a clue
here.  What has been said is that NMI's are rarely used - you don't
disable them, you simply don't activate them.

> 
> And you have to know what the interrupt handler will do when it gets the
> interrupt.  It may not just reboot the system, for instance.  Back in
> the MS-DOS days, I had a debugger with a card that had a button on it.
> Pressing the button generated a NMI which normally would have rebooted
> the computer.  But the code they put in brought up a system debugger
> instead.
> 

I am still waiting for references to justify why NMI's have to be
considered (rather than simply not used), and why failure to consider
them is a "common cause of design bugs".  You might also like to explain
why they "are important for things like a hardware interrupt" when
hardware interrupts almost invariably use /maskable/ interrupts.

<snip>

>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No, it's a bad idea, and not required.  If the hardware manufacturers
>>>>> thought it was a good idea, someone would have implemented it by now.
>>>>> The fact no one has indicates they see the potential problems much
>>>>> better than you do, and understand it's a problem that already has good
>>>>> solutions.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I agree it is not a required feature - after all, we got on fine without
>>>> it.  And there would be complications in implementing it in hardware, it
>>>> would not scale to multi-core systems, and it would be less useful and
>>>> more complicated with superscaler processors.  But for smaller systems
>>>> and simpler microcontrollers, it would definitely be a useful feature.
>>>> Whether or not it would be cost-effective (no feature is free) is
>>>> another matter.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I just see too many downsides to this and no real upside - other than
>>> not wanting to ensure you've enabled interrupts after disabling them.
>>>
>>> But then I almost never disable interrupts, even in kernel code (and
>>> never in application code).  It's just so rarely necessary.  If you find
>>> you are doing so regularly, you need to be looking at why.
>>>
>>
>> You don't do the same sort of programming as me - just because an idea
>> does not seem useful to /you/, does not mean it is not useful to others.
>>
> 
> I wouldn't say that.  I have worked on some pretty small chips - ones
> that can't even be programmed in C - you have to use assembler.
> 
> And I still don't see a reason for the idea, when there are already good
> ways to do it.
> 
> And obviously the chip manufacturers agree, because *none* of them have
> implemented it.  If someone thought it was a good idea, it would be part
> of their instruction set.

As I have said, I don't know if it is worth the effort implementing such
a feature - it would be nice to have, but it is certainly not essential.
 Chip designers make their decisions based on design costs (instruction
code space, and the effort needed to get it right), implementation costs
(die space, power usage, etc.), and potential usage.  People making
wish-lists of features they would like have different criteria - "nice
to have" weighs very highly.

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Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-19 14:22 -0700
  Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-20 09:36 +1200
    Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-19 22:48 +0100
      Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-19 14:56 -0700
      Re: Default values in #define Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2016-08-22 07:56 -0700
        Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-22 17:09 +0200
          Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-22 08:21 -0700
            Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-22 08:47 -0700
              Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-22 08:55 -0700
            Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-22 09:27 -0700
              Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-22 09:41 -0700
              Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-22 20:19 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-22 12:54 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-23 09:14 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 05:23 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define mark.bluemel@gmail.com - 2016-08-23 05:42 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 05:52 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define mark.bluemel@gmail.com - 2016-08-23 06:01 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 06:06 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 06:01 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-23 15:56 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 06:59 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-23 10:42 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define matt@godbolt.org - 2016-08-23 06:47 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-23 15:57 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-23 15:31 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 06:43 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-23 16:06 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 07:15 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-04 13:26 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-05 22:07 -0600
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                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-07 00:50 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-07 06:33 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-07 23:06 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-08 01:44 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-08 06:58 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-10 08:16 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-11 02:47 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-09 15:49 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-09 15:52 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2016-12-09 00:52 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-10 03:19 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-07 04:43 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-08 14:18 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-08 07:22 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-08 08:00 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-08 22:14 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-08 13:44 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-09 16:07 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-09 17:00 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-09 17:46 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-10 08:37 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-10 09:42 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-10 10:05 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-11 02:51 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-11 04:40 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-11 23:06 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 03:15 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-12 16:12 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 07:33 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-13 01:45 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-12 16:49 +0000
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 10:25 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-13 10:50 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 04:02 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-13 13:14 +0000
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 05:57 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-13 14:32 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 05:58 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 06:21 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-13 14:41 +0000
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 06:47 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-13 16:24 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 07:30 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-14 14:12 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-14 12:21 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-14 15:02 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-14 13:19 -0800
                Petty and unprofessional (Was: Default values in #define) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2016-12-13 16:46 +0000
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 09:04 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-13 20:06 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 11:19 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-13 11:33 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 11:44 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-14 10:04 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-13 14:37 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-12-14 14:28 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-13 14:23 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 16:10 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-13 18:54 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-13 18:57 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-14 02:53 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-14 05:59 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-14 12:03 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-14 12:22 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-14 17:09 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-14 18:37 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-12-13 05:25 -0800
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                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-12 07:35 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-12 09:17 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-12 11:03 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-12 11:41 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-12-12 12:31 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-12-12 13:13 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-12-12 20:22 +0000
                Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-12-11 14:49 +0000
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-11 07:10 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2016-12-11 07:21 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define jameskuyper@verizon.net - 2016-12-11 10:33 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-12-11 16:22 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2016-12-11 07:16 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-13 13:54 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 14:09 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-13 14:31 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-12-13 16:11 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 06:49 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Andrew Haley <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> - 2016-12-21 05:50 -0600
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-12-21 13:10 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-22 12:56 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-22 21:11 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-22 15:47 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-23 11:54 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 20:07 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-23 14:30 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-24 06:25 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-24 10:34 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2016-08-24 08:50 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-24 15:37 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-24 11:58 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-25 01:27 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-24 22:28 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-24 23:38 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-25 10:44 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-25 07:29 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-25 07:32 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-25 10:26 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-25 11:11 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-25 12:03 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 15:31 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-29 09:28 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 22:51 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-29 16:35 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 01:44 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-08-30 10:06 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-30 10:41 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 21:24 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-30 12:32 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jean-Marc Bourguet <jm@bourguet.org> - 2016-08-30 22:30 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-31 09:17 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-08-31 22:46 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-31 10:29 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-31 10:12 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-31 12:30 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-31 11:32 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-08-31 22:56 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-09-01 08:17 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-09-04 22:18 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-08-31 22:34 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-09-01 00:32 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-09-02 05:19 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jean-Marc Bourguet <jm@bourguet.org> - 2016-09-01 11:38 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-09-01 10:03 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-09-01 10:31 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-09-01 12:50 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jean-Marc Bourguet <jm@bourguet.org> - 2016-09-01 21:30 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-09-02 05:37 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-09-02 08:16 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-09-04 22:20 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-09-06 07:32 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-09-11 06:54 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-09-02 08:40 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-09-02 10:16 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-09-04 15:16 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-25 08:28 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-25 10:14 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-26 00:54 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-26 01:00 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-26 11:17 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-26 04:08 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-26 13:45 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-26 06:09 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-26 17:11 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-26 09:31 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-26 12:48 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-26 09:50 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 16:01 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-29 10:57 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2016-08-31 06:09 +0000
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-26 12:24 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-26 17:27 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-26 17:39 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-26 21:49 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 15:51 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 15:46 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2016-08-26 17:37 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-26 15:05 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-27 10:25 +1200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-26 16:25 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-26 18:12 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-27 13:47 +1200
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-26 19:32 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-26 22:54 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-26 21:11 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-27 18:25 +1200
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-27 09:11 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-27 06:33 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-27 10:16 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-27 13:17 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-27 16:26 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-27 13:10 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-27 16:35 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 09:28 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-29 15:38 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 13:27 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-29 16:42 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 14:16 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-29 17:24 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 13:21 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-30 08:12 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 15:24 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-30 10:53 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-30 10:34 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-30 14:44 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-30 12:48 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-30 17:19 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-31 11:24 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-31 10:33 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-31 09:51 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-31 22:46 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-30 16:26 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-09-03 17:31 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-09 16:03 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 21:36 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-30 17:30 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-31 12:39 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-31 03:57 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-31 15:34 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-31 07:33 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-31 10:46 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-31 10:03 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-31 22:52 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-09-01 07:41 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-09-01 14:58 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-31 02:27 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-31 08:21 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-31 09:05 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-31 09:15 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Rosario19 <Ros@invalid.invalid> - 2016-09-02 22:22 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-28 08:41 +1200
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-27 20:34 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 09:41 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-30 08:07 +1200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 14:08 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-29 15:41 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 16:30 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-29 17:14 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-29 17:20 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 23:37 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-30 02:19 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 13:26 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-30 04:40 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 13:56 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define albert@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2016-12-04 15:43 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-30 19:34 +1200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-30 00:51 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-30 20:36 +1200
                Re: Default values in #define Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2016-08-31 00:39 -0500
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-26 21:40 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-08-27 09:22 -0400
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-29 11:36 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-12-09 16:26 -0800
                Re: Default values in #define Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-27 06:34 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-27 12:48 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 16:12 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 16:10 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 10:18 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-29 10:32 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 10:49 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 23:13 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 14:48 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-26 09:14 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-26 08:59 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 15:43 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-29 22:58 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-30 07:14 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-30 00:14 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-30 00:26 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-30 02:10 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-30 10:47 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-30 03:32 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 13:38 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-30 04:44 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 14:00 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-30 18:55 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-30 12:24 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define me <crisdunbar@gmail.com> - 2016-08-30 14:11 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-30 16:28 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define me <crisdunbar@gmail.com> - 2016-08-30 16:54 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-31 06:27 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-30 23:09 +0100
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-30 16:06 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 13:35 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-30 13:30 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-30 04:39 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 15:40 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 15:17 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-29 06:47 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 16:58 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-29 09:09 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 23:16 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define already5chosen@yahoo.com - 2016-08-31 02:02 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-31 12:49 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-31 09:02 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-25 10:31 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-25 10:01 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 16:24 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 10:43 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 23:29 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-29 16:27 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-25 10:02 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-25 10:33 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Chris M. Thomasson" <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-25 14:12 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-25 14:22 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-29 16:27 +0200
            Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-22 23:13 +0200
              Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-22 14:39 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-23 09:32 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 05:33 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-23 06:13 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 06:22 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2016-08-23 16:13 +0200
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 07:35 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-23 19:08 +0100
            Re: Default values in #define Rosario19 <Ros@invalid.invalid> - 2016-08-24 09:05 +0200
              Re: Default values in #define mark.bluemel@gmail.com - 2016-08-24 00:49 -0700
              Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-24 05:40 -0700
    Re: Default values in #define BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-08-19 22:56 +0100
      Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-20 10:14 +1200
        Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-19 18:09 -0700
          Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-20 13:15 +1200
            Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-19 19:10 -0700
              Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-20 14:50 +1200
            Re: Default values in #define BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-08-20 10:35 +0100
              Re: Default values in #define Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-20 03:13 -0700
                Re: Default values in #define BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-08-20 12:24 +0100
              Re: Default values in #define Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-21 00:14 +1200
              Re: Default values in #define gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2016-08-20 14:13 +0000
                Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-22 05:17 -0700
              Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-20 12:08 -0700
          Re: Default values in #define Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-08-20 14:06 +0100
            Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-20 12:14 -0700
  Re: Default values in #define Philipp Klaus Krause <pkk@spth.de> - 2016-08-21 12:51 +0200
    Re: Default values in #define "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2016-08-22 05:11 -0700

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