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Re: High level C

From Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: High level C
Date 2016-08-03 13:23 -0500
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <nntcht$u0n$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (13 earlier) <kfnlh0gjzll.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> <nno29s$csj$1@dont-email.me> <kfn4m71kgc1.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> <nnt7d2$bpt$1@dont-email.me> <nnt9lv$jj8$1@dont-email.me>

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jacobnavia wrote:
> Le 03/08/2016 à 18:56, Les Cargill a écrit :
>> I expect that there are just different cultures, that people who
>> expect 'C' to do GC aren't people who perhaps "should" be looking at 'C'.
>
> So, 'C' is for you exposing yourself to all the tedious work of freeing
> memory without having a single error?
>
> Look just an example:
>
> I wrote a debugger for my IDE (yes, I know that you do not like/use
> IDE's but bear with me) and the problem of WHO is going to free each
> buffer was consuming me all my time!!!
>
> The front end (the editor, the display of the source code, the
> disassembler and many other parts of the debugger) needed to communicate
> with the "back-end" that has all information about the program being
> debugged, information that has to pass through buffers and buffers all
> implementing some kind of abstraction.
>
> WHO allocated this buffer?
>

So in general, the buffer itself should tell you that. It could be a
property of the buffer, it could be implied by context, any of a number 
of things. Who owns it? Declare an enum of "whos" and add a header to 
buffers that tells you that.

How can you claim any knowledge of the rough correct operation of a 
product if you can't reason effectively about object lifetime?

> I was tired of debugger crashes and decided to use the GC.  It has never
> caused any problem, and the delays introduced by the GC are completely
> invisible.
>

Well, there you go.

Here is the thing: I think that had you considered this up front in your 
design, it would have been both easier and your project would have been 
more stable.

I'm not nattering/complaining, it's just the many or most of the 
projects I've worked on that needed dynamic objects, I spent 
considerable time figuring out what was framed in what, how object 
lifetimes worked, that sort of thing.

Maybe that's too much trouble for something like an IDE. I don't know.
I do know that one reason I don't like IDEs is that many of them were
pretty buggy.

You have to understand: the code I write *HAS* to work. Every time, all
the time. No exceptions.

Using something like the Win32 API makes this problematic, but
it's eminently doable.

> Of course, people that do not use IDEs (how do you debug stuff by the
> way? Using text mode gdb???)
>

I generally debug stuff by using instrumentation internal to the code 
base. Worst case is writing to log files or using printf(). I'll keep
counters of things like events mainly. Then I'll write analysis tools
that run on a workstation that figure out what's going on.

People have said "oh, you're writing a debugger." No, not at all - this
is specialized to the thing being written. It's a lot less than you think.

I can debug stuff that's running in a production environment this way
with no modification. But I get past the level of basic programming
errors very early in a project. I'm down to people miscommunicating
about interfaces and configuration issues. You use my stuff to figure
out what everybody else has done wrong.

> Your answer is typical of people that think that their prejudices are
> correct

Of course not. I've explained my position - again - in this post. I
don't buy the idea that this is just too hard. I think people just want
to stop worrying about it. Which is bizarre. Which is one reason I tend
to avoid that sort of project.

> and jusrt do not want to understand that the world evolves,that
> software construction today is different from what it was in the time of
> the terminals!!!

If that were actually true, I might agree with you :) Nothing 
significant has changed, sadly.

-- 
Les Cargill

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High level C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-15 23:36 +0200
  Re: High level C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-15 15:17 -0700
    Re: High level C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-16 09:09 +0200
      Re: High level C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-17 20:02 -0700
  Re: High level C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-07-15 15:17 -0700
    Re: High level C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2016-07-31 23:55 -0700
  Re: High level C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-15 23:27 +0100
    Re: High level C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-16 09:13 +0200
      Re: High level C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-16 02:07 -0700
        Re: High level C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-16 11:07 +0100
          Re: High level C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-16 03:29 -0700
            Re: High level C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-16 13:40 +0100
            Re: High level C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-17 11:57 +0530
          Re: High level C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-16 11:30 +0100
            Re: High level C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-16 03:43 -0700
              Re: High level C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-16 13:53 +0100
                Re: High level C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-16 07:49 -0700
                Re: High level C Jean-Marc Bourguet <jm@bourguet.org> - 2016-07-16 17:08 +0200
                Re: High level C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-16 09:09 -0700
                Re: High level C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-16 16:26 +0100
                Re: High level C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-16 18:05 +0200
                Re: High level C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-16 20:15 +0100
                Re: High level C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-16 23:44 +0200
                Re: High level C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-07-23 19:39 +0000
                Re: High level C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-23 22:58 +0200
                Re: High level C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-07-27 14:52 +0000
                Re: High level C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2016-07-27 16:29 +0100
                Re: High level C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-07-23 19:38 +0000
              Re: High level C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-16 14:17 +0100
            Re: High level C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-16 13:46 +0100
            Re: High level C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-17 12:05 +0530
              Re: High level C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-17 11:03 +0100
                Re: High level C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-17 03:39 -0700
                Re: High level C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-17 18:20 +0530
                Re: High level C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-17 14:00 +0100
                Re: High level C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-17 23:13 +0530
                Re: High level C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-17 20:14 +0200
                Re: High level C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-17 20:14 +0100
                Re: High level C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-17 20:45 +0100
                Re: High level C Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-07-17 21:00 +0100
                Re: High level C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 09:48 +0530
                Re: High level C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-18 00:55 -0700
                Re: High level C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 22:25 +0530
                Re: High level C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-18 11:40 +0100
                Re: High level C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-18 05:05 -0700
                Re: High level C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 22:59 +0530
                Re: High level C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 22:50 +0530
                Re: High level C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-18 19:07 +0100
                Re: High level C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-19 11:53 +0530
                Re: High level C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-19 11:15 +0100
                Re: High level C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 14:00 +0100
                Re: High level C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-19 15:01 +0100
                Re: High level C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 15:26 +0100
                Re: High level C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-19 15:57 +0100
                Re: High level C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 17:13 +0100
                Re: High level C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-19 18:14 +0100
                Re: High level C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 19:20 +0100
                Re: High level C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-19 19:46 +0100
                Re: High level C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-20 02:44 +0100
                Re: High level C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-20 10:59 +0100
                Re: High level C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-20 03:07 -0700
                Re: High level C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-21 01:44 +0100
                Re: High level C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-21 18:58 +0530
                Re: High level C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-21 17:20 +0100
                Re: High level C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-21 20:52 +0100
                Re: High level C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-21 21:14 +0100
                Re: High level C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-07-21 13:23 -0700
                Re: High level C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-21 21:50 +0100
                Re: High level C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-22 12:52 +0200
                Re: High level C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-22 04:03 -0700
                Re: High level C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-22 23:56 +0530
                Re: High level C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-22 20:09 +0100
                Re: High level C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-22 23:49 +0530
                Re: High level C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-22 20:37 +0100
                Re: High level C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-19 19:16 +0200
                Re: High level C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 19:17 +0100
                Re: High level C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-19 21:07 +0200
                Re: High level C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-20 02:36 +0100
                Re: High level C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-19 07:27 -0700
                Re: High level C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-19 16:27 +0100
                Re: High level C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-07-19 08:43 -0700
                Re: High level C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-19 19:14 +0100
                Re: High level C Jean-Marc Bourguet <jm@bourguet.org> - 2016-07-18 10:08 +0200
                Re: High level C Udyant Wig <udyant.wig@gmail.com> - 2016-07-18 23:04 +0530
      Re: High level C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-07-16 10:18 +0100
    Re: High level C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-07-23 19:26 +0000
      Re: High level C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-07-25 09:21 -0700
        Re: High level C luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2016-07-25 10:19 -0700
          Re: High level C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-07-28 10:31 -0700
            Re: High level C luser droog <luser.droog@gmail.com> - 2016-07-28 21:13 -0700
              Re: High level C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-29 09:05 -0700
                Re: High level C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-07-29 09:30 -0700
                Re: High level C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-29 10:08 -0700
                Re: High level C Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2016-07-29 17:57 +0000
                Re: High level C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-07-29 11:50 -0700
              Re: High level C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-07-31 07:16 -0700
                Re: High level C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-07-31 14:34 +0000
                Re: High level C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-07-31 14:55 -0700
                Re: High level C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-01 03:10 -0700
                Re: High level C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-08-01 07:40 -0700
                Re: High level C Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-01 19:43 +0100
                Re: High level C Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2016-08-01 10:21 -0500
                Re: High level C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-08-03 13:14 +0000
                Re: High level C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-08-05 08:40 -0700
                Re: High level C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-05 09:28 -0700
                Re: High level C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2016-08-05 09:55 -0700
                Re: High level C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-08-05 15:51 -0700
                Re: High level C Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-08-05 18:43 +0200
                Re: High level C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-08-05 15:43 -0700
                Re: High level C Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-08-06 00:52 +0200
                Re: High level C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-08-10 12:42 +0000
                Re: High level C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-08-11 12:24 -0700
                Re: High level C Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-07-31 16:42 +0200
                Re: High level C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-07-31 12:59 -0700
                Re: High level C Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2016-07-31 17:12 -0500
                Re: High level C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-07-31 17:12 -0700
                Re: High level C Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2016-08-01 00:54 -0500
                Re: High level C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-08-01 08:08 -0700
                Re: High level C Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2016-08-01 12:58 -0500
                Re: High level C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2016-08-01 12:25 -0700
                Re: High level C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-08-03 08:44 -0700
                Re: High level C Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2016-08-03 11:56 -0500
                Re: High level C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-08-03 19:29 +0200
                Re: High level C "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-08-03 13:45 -0400
                Re: High level C Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2016-08-03 13:23 -0500
                Re: High level C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-08-03 19:27 +0100
                Re: High level C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-08-03 21:04 +0200
                Re: High level C Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2016-08-03 20:08 +0100
                Re: High level C Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2016-08-03 16:09 -0500
                Re: High level C Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2016-08-03 16:06 -0500
                Re: High level C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-08-03 23:36 +0200
                Re: High level C Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2016-08-03 19:44 -0500
                Re: High level C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-03 15:03 -0700
                Re: High level C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-08-04 19:17 -0700
                Re: High level C Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-08-05 05:48 +0200
                Re: High level C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-05 08:24 -0700
                Re: High level C Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-08-05 18:30 +0200
                Re: High level C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-05 10:34 -0700
                Re: High level C Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-08-05 20:50 +0200
                Re: High level C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-08-05 15:39 -0700
                Re: High level C Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-08-06 00:50 +0200
                Re: High level C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2016-08-05 17:08 -0700
                Re: High level C Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-08-06 02:23 +0200
                Re: High level C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2016-08-06 10:03 +0000
                Re: High level C Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-08-06 12:13 +0200
                Re: High level C "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-08-06 11:10 -0400
                Re: High level C Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-08-06 17:40 +0200
                Re: High level C "James R. Kuyper" <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2016-08-06 11:56 -0400
                Re: High level C Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-08-06 17:51 +0200
                Re: High level C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2016-08-08 09:12 -0700
                Re: High level C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-31 22:07 +0200
                Re: High level C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-07-31 15:05 -0700
                Re: High level C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2016-08-03 11:22 +1200
                Re: High level C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2016-08-03 08:50 -0700
  Re: High level C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-07-16 01:12 +0100
    Re: High level C Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2016-07-15 20:16 -0400
    Re: High level C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-16 09:17 +0200
  Re: High level C Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-16 08:20 -0700
    Re: High level C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-16 17:24 +0200
      Re: High level C Siri Cruise <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2016-07-16 09:24 -0700
  Re: High level C carlglassberg@gmail.com - 2016-07-17 14:15 -0700
  Re: High level C carlglassberg@gmail.com - 2016-07-17 14:22 -0700
    Re: High level C jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2016-07-17 23:58 +0200
  Re: High level C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2016-08-02 13:20 -0700

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