Re: VW (Re: Preparation for what's coming)

From	glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: VW (Re: Preparation for what's coming)
Date	2015-10-08 01:04 +0000
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<mv4fej$524$1@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink)
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Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:

(snip)
>>> The main headline on Sept 23 was a story about a car manufacturer 
>>> cheating on nitrous oxide emissions tests. 

As I noted before, it is other oxides than N2O.

>> It does bring up some important points in regard to computer
>> programming and liability. It isn't so obvious yet how high
>> up it went, but there is pretty much no doubt that those
>> writing the software knew what they were doing.

> That's the part that fascinates me the most. How can you keep the lid
> on such a thing?  I can't see how you can make it work.

Interesting question, maybe the answer will come out in the end.

I am not sure which countries have such tests. It might be easier
when the people involved don't work in the country doing the tests,
but it would seem to me it can easily come out when someone
gets fired.  Unless they have a strong incentive (like a gun
pointed at their head) not to tell, the secret can easily get out.

> The core programmers in the engine area need to be in on it, and a
> whole management chain.  And several layers of test and verification
> people.  And maintenance and support.  And anyone with read access to
> the source code.  That's dozens of people already.

> You cannot keep QA out of the loop by sneaking it in very late,
> because while /some/ people are willing to cheat on emission
> benchmarks, fewer would do anything which is a safety problem, such
> as doing tests on anything but the software which reaches customers.

OK, say you have one persor responsible for taking the bits and
writing them into ROMs. (And for now consider mask ROMs, though I
don't know what they use.)  If that person can do it just right,
and avoid too many others from knowing, it might work.

> It even complicates the recruitment process; you need to ask HR to
> hire only programmers with low moral standards.  Or very naive
> programmers ... at any rate, precisely the people you /don't/ want to
> have for a lot of other reasons.

Seems that way to me.

> Perhaps someone has done an analysis from this angle already ...

Maybe the UWV group does that. It seems that they are funded by
fines paid by previous violators of the testing laws.

As I understand it, there were people wondering how VW managed
to design an engine that didn't need urea injection, when all
the others did.  It wasn't that they were suspected of cheating,
but what secret did they have for the low emissions. Then they
started measuring while driving, and the secret started to
come out.

-- glen

Thread

Preparation for what's coming "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 08:34 -0700
  Re: Preparation for what's coming jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2015-09-18 19:40 +0200
    Re: Preparation for what's coming "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-09-18 10:52 -0700
      Re: Preparation for what's coming "Chris M. Thomasson" <nospam@nospam.nospam> - 2015-09-18 12:48 -0700
    Re: Preparation for what's coming Steven Hystad <steven.hystad@lunarinfrastructure.net> - 2015-09-22 19:22 -0600
  Re: Preparation for what's coming "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-09-19 13:09 -0700
    Re: Preparation for what's coming "Chris M. Thomasson" <nospam@nospam.nospam> - 2015-09-19 13:13 -0700
      Re: Preparation for what's coming "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-09-19 13:48 -0700
        Re: Preparation for what's coming "Chris M. Thomasson" <nospam@nospam.nospam> - 2015-09-19 14:19 -0700
          Re: Preparation for what's coming "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-09-19 14:50 -0700
            Re: Preparation for what's coming "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-09-19 14:56 -0700
            Re: Preparation for what's coming jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2015-09-20 00:11 +0200
              Re: Preparation for what's coming "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-09-19 15:24 -0700
              Re: Preparation for what's coming fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-09-20 00:37 -0700
                Re: Preparation for what's coming fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-09-20 00:44 -0700
              Re: Preparation for what's coming "Chris M. Thomasson" <nospam@nospam.nospam> - 2015-09-20 22:26 -0700
                Re: Preparation for what's coming Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-09-21 08:31 -0700
                Re: Preparation for what's coming David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-09-22 10:38 +0200
                Re: Preparation for what's coming gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2015-09-22 08:44 +0000
                Re: Preparation for what's coming David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-09-22 10:59 +0200
                Re: Preparation for what's coming fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-09-22 02:50 -0700
                Re: Preparation for what's coming fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-09-22 03:09 -0700
                Re: Preparation for what's coming Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-09-22 07:51 -0700
                Re: Preparation for what's coming "James Harris" <james.harris.1@gmail.com> - 2015-09-22 20:34 +0100
                Re: Preparation for what's coming David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-09-23 10:17 +0200
                Re: Preparation for what's coming "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-09-23 01:45 -0700
                Re: Preparation for what's coming Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-09-23 08:50 -0700
                Re: Preparation for what's coming fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-09-23 11:10 -0700
                Re: Preparation for what's coming David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-09-24 16:11 +0200
                Re: Preparation for what's coming fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-09-24 08:17 -0700
                Re: Preparation for what's coming James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-09-24 12:17 -0400
                Re: Preparation for what's coming fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-09-24 10:52 -0700
                Re: Preparation for what's coming BruceS <bruces42@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-22 16:39 -0600
                Re: Preparation for what's coming "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-09-22 16:01 -0700
                Re: Preparation for what's coming Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-23 11:08 +1200
                Re: Preparation for what's coming "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-09-22 16:30 -0700
                Re: Preparation for what's coming David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-09-23 10:38 +0200
                Re: Preparation for what's coming Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-23 21:32 +1200
                Re: Preparation for what's coming Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-09-23 03:04 -0700
                Re: Preparation for what's coming David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-09-23 13:10 +0200
                Re: Preparation for what's coming fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-09-21 11:55 -0700
            Re: Preparation for what's coming "Chris M. Thomasson" <nospam@nospam.nospam> - 2015-09-19 15:27 -0700
              Re: Preparation for what's coming Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-09-20 01:02 +0200
                Re: Preparation for what's coming "Chris M. Thomasson" <nospam@nospam.nospam> - 2015-09-19 17:13 -0700
                Re: Preparation for what's coming Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-09-20 02:28 +0200
                Re: Preparation for what's coming Siri Cruz <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2015-09-19 18:26 -0700
          Re: Preparation for what's coming "Chris M. Thomasson" <nospam@nospam.nospam> - 2015-09-19 17:19 -0700
      Re: Preparation for what's coming Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-09-19 16:28 -0700
        Re: Preparation for what's coming "Chris M. Thomasson" <nospam@nospam.nospam> - 2015-09-19 17:23 -0700
          Re: Preparation for what's coming Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-09-19 18:26 -0700
            Re: Preparation for what's coming "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-09-19 20:25 -0700
              Re: Preparation for what's coming "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-09-19 20:38 -0700
                Re: Preparation for what's coming Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-09-20 15:57 +1200
                Re: Preparation for what's coming jacobnavia <jacob@jacob.remcomp.fr> - 2015-09-21 10:46 +0200
  Re: Preparation for what's coming Jens Stuckelberger <Jens_Stuckelberger@nowhere.net> - 2015-09-20 23:37 +0000
  Re: Preparation for what's coming "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-09-21 13:04 -0700
  Re: Preparation for what's coming "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-09-21 13:19 -0700
    Re: Preparation for what's coming fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-09-21 14:12 -0700
      Re: Preparation for what's coming "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-09-21 14:22 -0700
        Re: Preparation for what's coming Rosario19 <Ros@invalid.invalid> - 2015-09-22 00:37 +0200
          Re: Preparation for what's coming "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-09-21 15:41 -0700
            Re: Preparation for what's coming Rosario19 <Ros@invalid.invalid> - 2015-09-22 00:54 +0200
              Re: Preparation for what's coming "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-09-21 16:03 -0700
    Re: Preparation for what's coming Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-09-22 03:09 -0700
      Re: Preparation for what's coming "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-09-22 03:49 -0700
        Re: Preparation for what's coming "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-09-22 04:12 -0700
        Re: Preparation for what's coming Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-09-22 04:14 -0700
          Re: Preparation for what's coming "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-09-22 04:45 -0700
            Re: Preparation for what's coming Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-09-23 12:24 -0700
              Re: Preparation for what's coming fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-09-23 13:16 -0700
              Re: Preparation for what's coming "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-09-24 11:25 -0700
        Re: Preparation for what's coming "Chris M. Thomasson" <nospam@nospam.nospam> - 2015-09-22 12:44 -0700
  Re: Preparation for what's coming "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-10-06 06:21 -0700
  Re: Preparation for what's coming "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-10-06 07:55 -0700
    Re: Preparation for what's coming Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-10-06 09:09 -0700
      Re: Preparation for what's coming "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-10-06 09:14 -0700
        Re: Preparation for what's coming "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-10-06 09:16 -0700
        Re: Preparation for what's coming "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-10-10 21:26 -0700
          Re: Preparation for what's coming "Chris M. Thomasson" <nospam@nospam.nospam> - 2015-10-10 23:45 -0700
            Re: Preparation for what's coming Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-10-11 00:31 -0700
            Re: Preparation for what's coming Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-10-11 13:36 +0200
          Re: Preparation for what's coming Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-10-11 21:35 +1300
          Re: Preparation for what's coming "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-10-11 06:10 -0700
            Re: Preparation for what's coming Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-10-11 15:38 +0200
              Re: Preparation for what's coming "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-10-11 07:59 -0700
      Re: Preparation for what's coming glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-10-06 21:05 +0000
        Re: Preparation for what's coming Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-10-07 00:59 -0700
        Re: Preparation for what's coming David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-10-07 11:43 +0200
        VW (Re: Preparation for what's coming) Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-10-07 13:33 +0000
          Re: VW (Re: Preparation for what's coming) glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-10-08 01:04 +0000
    Re: Preparation for what's coming Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-10-07 08:32 +1300
      Re: Preparation for what's coming "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-10-06 12:46 -0700

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