Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.lang.c > #67779

Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein)

Show all headers | View raw

On 08/18/2015 07:19 PM, supercat@casperkitty.com wrote:
> On Saturday, December 20, 2014 at 12:36:33 PM UTC-6, James Kuyper wrote:

It's been eight months since I posted that message, you sure took a long
time to respond.

I had to search for my original message to find out what the context of
my comments was, my news server doesn't keep old messages that long.

Many people have described C as a portable assembley language, and
someone took that description too literally. He expected some C code to
be translated into machine language using a particular set of
instructions. Under circumstances where the behavior of the C code was
undefined, he expected the actual behavior to be that which would have
resulted from using that particular set of instructions. I pointed out
that C is NOT a high-level assembler. An assembler allows you to specify
what instructions should be generated, C only allows you to specify the
resulting behavior. As a result, the compiler is free to generate a
different set of instructions than the one he expected, so long as it
had the same behavior when the behavior was well-defined. The fact that
it generates different behavior than he expected when the behavior is
undefined doesn't violate any applicable requirements. In that context
(specifically, considering a shift by too many bits), I wrote:

>> It might seem perverse to produce any other result - until you consider
>> optimizations. A shift expression could be optimized completely out of
>> the generated code, or it could be combined with another expression, and
>> the combination might be replaced by a different set of instructions
>> that is better for some reason. As long as the alternative instructions
>> have behavior that matches the standard's requirements, when it imposes
>> some, it doesn't matter what the alternative code does when the behavior
>> is undefined.
> 
> A problem with that thinking is that it precludes the possibility of optimizing code based on a programmer's willingness to accept range of behaviors.  Consider the following requirement and a method written in C to meet it:

I find your whole discussion quite murky. I think that the key thing
that is missing is the alternative way of thinking that you're comparing
this to. I see no alternative way that is consistent with the actual
words of the standard that would avoid the issues you raise. If you have
thought of such a way, you should describe it.
-- 
James Kuyper

Back to comp.lang.c | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-08-18 16:19 -0700
  Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-08-18 21:15 -0400
    Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-08-19 10:11 -0700
      Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2015-08-19 19:58 +0000
        Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-08-19 14:09 -0700
      Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-08-19 16:10 -0400
        Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-08-19 16:01 -0700
          Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-08-19 20:23 -0400
            Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-08-20 10:35 -0700
              Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-08-20 12:32 -0700
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-08-20 13:31 -0700
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) donalhambra@gmail.com - 2015-08-20 14:23 -0700
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-08-20 16:13 -0700
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-08-20 17:48 -0700
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-08-21 01:32 -0700
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-08-21 18:34 -0700
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-08-21 22:11 -0700
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-08-22 09:41 -0400
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-08-22 16:59 +0000
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-08-22 23:30 -0400
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-08-24 03:36 +0000
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-08-24 00:25 -0400
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-08-23 22:57 -0700
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-08-24 19:49 +0000
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-06 14:43 -0700
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-08-23 16:27 -0700
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-08-23 21:15 -0400
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-08-23 20:18 -0700
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-08-22 14:37 +0000
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-08-22 19:12 -0700
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-08-22 23:38 -0400
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-08-23 20:01 -0700
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-08-23 21:56 -0700
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-08-24 17:25 -0700
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-08-24 18:21 -0700
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-08-24 22:22 -0400
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-08-25 14:31 +0000
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-08-25 09:22 -0700
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-08-25 18:55 +0000
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-08-25 12:33 -0700
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-08-25 16:23 -0700
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-08-24 00:31 -0400
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-08-24 10:32 -0700
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-08-22 23:54 -0700
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-08-24 03:45 +0000
                Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-09-07 08:11 -0700
      Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-08-23 18:46 -0400
        Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-08-23 19:04 -0700
          Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-08-23 23:40 -0400
            Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-08-23 22:48 -0700
              Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-08-24 00:38 -0700
  Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-08-18 21:22 -0400
  Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2015-08-20 21:44 +0000
    Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-08-20 16:48 -0700
    Re: the language (and the role of Undefined Behavior therein) Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2015-08-20 23:41 -0700

csiph-web