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Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science.

From Tom McDonald <tmcdonald2672@charter.net>
Newsgroups alt.atheism, rec.arts.sf.written, sci.physics, sci.physics.relativity
Subject Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science.
Date 2015-08-11 20:22 -0500
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <mqe714$lre$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (4 earlier) <mqd44a$mb5$1@dont-email.me> <mqd53c$qd9$1@dont-email.me> <mqdbc5$jtf$1@dont-email.me> <mqdcem$p3j$1@dont-email.me> <mqe6mb$tqr$1@dont-email.me>

Cross-posted to 4 groups.

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On 8/11/2015 8:16 PM, Carl Kaufmann wrote:
> On 2015-08-11 13:48, the late Marie Therese LaBourgeois wrote:
>> On 8/11/2015 10:30 AM, Tom McDonald wrote:
>>> On 8/11/2015 10:43 AM, the late Marie Therese LaBourgeois wrote:
>>>> On 8/11/2015 8:26 AM, niunian wrote:
>>>>> On 2015-08-11 11:06 PM, the late Marie Therese LaBourgeois wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/11/2015 7:58 AM, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Aug 2015 07:29:15 -0700, the late Marie Therese
>>>>>>> LaBourgeois
>>>>>>> <barack@dewey_cheatham_and_howe.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 4/24/2015 10:51 AM, The Starmaker wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Atheism is based on beliefs, not science.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In what way is that a criticism?  Explain.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ignoring, for the moment, the inappropriate cross-posting between
>>>>>>> alt.atheism, rec.arts.sf.written, sci.physics and
>>>>>>> sci.physics.relativity - atheism is based on neither beliefs nor
>>>>>>> science.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course it's based on beliefs, whether positive or negative.
>>>>>> Strong
>>>>>> atheists believe there is no god.  Weak atheists don't believe in any
>>>>>> god (a negative belief - they have beliefs, but absent from them is a
>>>>>> belief in a god.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stop spewing nonsense.
>>>>>
>>>>> Atheism has been improving. In the old days, they believed there
>>>>> was no
>>>>> God. Nowadays, in order to avoid denying God in case there is one,
>>>>> they
>>>>> believe they have no belief. It's a kind of self denial logic to get
>>>>> out
>>>>> of an awkward position.
>>>>
>>>> Partly.  As I have earlier elaborated, some atheists are "strong"
>>>> atheists, believing there is no god; others are "weak" atheists,
>>>> lacking
>>>> a belief *in* any god.  It's still *about* belief, generally, and at
>>>> least for the weak atheists, there's nothing pejorative about it.
>>>>
>>>> I dislike people who try to argue this using stale slogans they wrongly
>>>> consider to be catchy and witty, and that includes militant atheists
>>>> who
>>>> repeatedly toss off the three-second bit of snark about "not collecting
>>>> stamps", as well as the militant anti-atheists who brainlessly repeat
>>>> the marginally less snarky "atheism is just another faith-based
>>>> religion" bullshit.
>>>>
>>> What's the problem, in your view, with comparing atheism to not
>>> collecting stamps when the theist says atheism is a religion or such?
>>
>> Because in addition to the falsity of the analogy, in the case of a
>> "strong" atheist, the analogy wouldn't hold even if it weren't invalid.
>>   For the strong atheist, atheism *is* a religion.  She positively
>> believes, but cannot prove, that there is no god.  It's a matter of pure
>> faith.
>>
>> For the "weak" atheist, we can talk about a *lack* of a belief in god,
>> as opposed to a positive belief in "no god," but we're still talking
>> about belief generally.  Your beliefs in general are not merely those
>> things in which you positively believe; we can talk about beliefs that
>> are in your set of (positive) beliefs, and those that aren't.
>>
>> The reason the shopworn "not collecting stamps" snark is so shitty is
>> that it doesn't mean you don't have *any* hobby.
>
> And being an atheist doesn't mean you don't have *any* beliefs, although
> I have seen plenty of theists who stupidly ask "Don't you believe in
> anything?"
>
> Using your paragraph above:
>
> For the "weak" aphilatelist, we can talk about a *lack* of a hobby of
> stamp collecting, as opposed to a positive hobby of "not stamp
> collecting" [avoiding stamps whenever/however possible and encouraging
> others to do the same], but we're still talking about hobbies generally.
>
>>> Seems pretty pithy, accurate, and
>>
>> It's pure snark, and the analogy collapses in failure.
>
> What, in fact, is so snarky about it?
>
Interestingly, what she cut was my observation that the idea of talking 
about the analogy of non-stamp-collecting was devised as a conversation 
starter, not a conversation stopper. So she stopped the conversation by 
snipping that part of my reply.

So I shitcanned the bitch.

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Thread

Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> - 2015-08-11 09:58 -0500
  Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> - 2015-08-11 10:14 -0500
    Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-11 13:01 -0400
  Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-11 23:26 +0800
    Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-12 00:24 +0800
      Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2015-08-11 13:36 -0400
        Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-12 07:58 +0800
          Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. bilgat@m.nu - 2015-08-11 19:23 -0500
            Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-12 08:48 +0800
              Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. bilgat@m.nu - 2015-08-12 04:13 -0500
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-12 20:57 +0800
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. bilgat@m.nu - 2015-08-12 12:39 -0500
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. benj <nobody@gmail.com> - 2015-08-12 15:48 -0400
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. bilgat@m.nu - 2015-08-12 15:26 -0500
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. HVAC <Mr.HVAC@gmail.com> - 2015-08-13 07:26 -0400
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-12 20:03 -0400
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. talishi <talishi@example.net> - 2015-08-12 17:49 -0800
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-08-12 18:08 -0700
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-08-13 00:27 -0700
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. "W.TS." <m14m@earthlink.net> - 2015-08-12 20:55 -0500
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. The Starmaker <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-08-12 19:24 -0700
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-13 07:36 -0400
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-13 13:23 -0400
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. rja.carnegie@gmail.com - 2015-08-13 14:10 -0700
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-12 20:00 -0400
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2015-08-12 19:24 -0700
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-13 10:53 +0800
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. bilgat@m.nu - 2015-08-12 23:58 -0500
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-13 15:56 +0800
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-13 07:37 -0400
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-13 20:25 +0800
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2015-08-13 06:13 -0700
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-08-13 14:20 +0100
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-13 10:39 +0800
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. bilgat@m.nu - 2015-08-12 23:59 -0500
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-13 16:15 +0800
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-13 07:44 -0400
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-13 20:30 +0800
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-13 09:26 -0400
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-14 17:30 +0800
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. bilgat@m.nu - 2015-08-14 14:11 -0500
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2015-08-15 05:31 -0400
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-15 18:25 +0800
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-08-13 15:53 +0100
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. walksalone <spamstopper@nerdshack.com> - 2015-08-13 16:39 +0000
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-14 17:24 +0800
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-08-14 12:08 +0100
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. bilgat@m.nu - 2015-08-14 14:17 -0500
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. talishi <talishi@example.net> - 2015-08-14 04:50 -0700
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-08-14 12:53 +0100
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2015-08-14 06:54 -0700
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. bilgat@m.nu - 2015-08-14 14:16 -0500
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-15 07:51 +0800
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. Mike M <mike@xenocyte.com> - 2015-08-15 06:41 +0000
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-15 16:11 +0800
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. talishi <talishi@example.net> - 2015-08-15 03:36 -0700
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-15 18:48 +0800
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. "Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-08-15 15:17 +0100
              Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-12 19:59 -0400
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-13 10:33 +0800
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-13 07:47 -0400
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-13 20:34 +0800
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-13 09:36 -0400
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. Lawrence Watt-Evans <lwe@sff.net> - 2015-08-13 13:10 -0400
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-13 13:25 -0400
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-14 17:49 +0800
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-14 18:00 +0800
          Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-11 21:41 -0400
            Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-12 15:08 +0800
              Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-12 20:04 -0400
      Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-11 15:38 -0400
        Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. bilgat@m.nu - 2015-08-11 14:57 -0500
        Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-12 07:29 +0800
          Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-11 21:44 -0400
            Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. Jeanne Douglas <hlwdjsd2@NOSPAMgmail.com> - 2015-08-11 20:23 -0700
              Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. bilgat@m.nu - 2015-08-12 04:14 -0500
      Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. bilgat@m.nu - 2015-08-11 14:55 -0500
        Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-13 16:00 +0800
          Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-13 07:51 -0400
            Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-13 20:49 +0800
              Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-13 09:46 -0400
                Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-14 18:18 +0800
          Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2015-08-14 03:19 -0400
            Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. niunian <niunian@ymail.com> - 2015-08-14 18:25 +0800
              Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. Attila <<prochoice@here.now> - 2015-08-15 05:34 -0400
    Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. Tom McDonald <tmcdonald2672@charter.net> - 2015-08-11 12:30 -0500
      Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. Tom McDonald <tmcdonald2672@charter.net> - 2015-08-11 12:59 -0500
      Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. bilgat@m.nu - 2015-08-11 15:03 -0500
        Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. bilgat@m.nu - 2015-08-11 19:30 -0500
          Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. bilgat@m.nu - 2015-08-12 04:19 -0500
            Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. bilgat@m.nu - 2015-08-12 12:36 -0500
              Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. "W.TS." <m14m@earthlink.net> - 2015-08-12 20:53 -0500
        Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. Carl Kaufmann <cwkaufmann@cox.net> - 2015-08-11 21:20 -0400
          Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. Carl Kaufmann <cwkaufmann@cox.net> - 2015-08-12 10:01 -0400
      Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. Carl Kaufmann <cwkaufmann@cox.net> - 2015-08-11 21:16 -0400
        Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. Tom McDonald <tmcdonald2672@charter.net> - 2015-08-11 20:22 -0500
          Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. wdstarr@panix.com (William December Starr) - 2015-08-11 21:49 -0400
    Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. bilgat@m.nu - 2015-08-11 14:53 -0500
  Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. bilgat@m.nu - 2015-08-11 14:51 -0500
  Re: Atheism is based on beliefs, not science. Robert Bannister <robban@clubtelco.com> - 2015-08-12 12:35 +0800

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