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Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway

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On 7/22/2015 6:30 PM, lasselangwadtchristensen@gmail.com wrote:
> Den onsdag den 22. juli 2015 kl. 00.22.18 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:
>> On 7/21/2015 2:35 PM, Ian Yellowley wrote:
>>
>>> I wonder why there should be any connection between these networks, I can
>>> see consolidation of steering, suspension and braking info for stability but
>>> the rest??? There would seem to be huge differences in required bandwidth,
>>> latency and reliability so is there a cost saving? I was involved in the
>>> design of steer by wire systems many years ago and the extent to which we
>>> went to provide reliability, multiple layers of redundancy and isolation
>>> from other systems were fairly extreme. This was in a University lab...I
>>> would expect at least that from a commercial product.
>>
>>   From the (limited) exposure I've had to automotive control systems,
>> there doesn't seem to be a cohesive, integrated "system design"
>> at work.  Instead, there are all these little islands of control
>> that are hacked together and "integrated" after-the-fact.
>>
>> [Often, individual subsystems are farmed out to third parties.  E.g.,
>> you can bet that the auto manufacturer doesn't design the navigation
>> system, entertainment system, security system -- perhaps not even the
>> engine control system itself!]
>>
>> E.g., why would the ECU need to talk to anything other than the *engine*?
>> "Ah, but we can tell the air conditioning compressor to disengage when
>> we are calling for extra demand from the engine!  So, let the *engine*
>> tell the air conditioner to 'pause' -- instead of having some higher
>> level of integration impose those rules.  Likewise, let the tranny
>> controller tell the door locks to engage when the vehicle is put in
>> gear (or, when the wheels attain a certain speed).
>>
>
> afaiu from a guy I know that works a lot with car electronics as in
> building ECUs, gearbox controllers and integrating them with the different
> system in a number of different cars, most of the systems are stand alone
> and mostly listen to each other, i.e. the ECU does nothing but run the engine
> and broadcast what it is doing, ditto for all the other systems
>
> so if the doorlocks see the tranny broadcasting a speed over x it can decide
> to lock the doors, if the AC see the engine broadcast a load over x it can decide to pause, if the ECU see the ABS module broadcast wheelspeeds that indicate wheelspin it can turn down the power
>
> I guess it is similar to the unix philosophy, do one thing and do it well

I expect the problem is that the ECU receives commands from the gas 
pedal over the bus or maybe there is an overall monitor that can shut 
down essential functions.  Perhaps there is an anti-theft feature built 
in that works over the bus?  Clearly they have the ability to control 
various functions by the bus rather than run many pounds of wire all 
through the car.  I guess some wires are more important than others.

I will have to say it is hard to imagine a valid use case for shutting 
down the steering or the brakes.

-- 

Rick

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Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway Rob Gaddi <rgaddi@technologyhighland.invalid> - 2015-07-21 19:28 +0000
  Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-07-21 13:00 -0700
    Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2015-07-21 21:49 +1000
      Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-07-21 18:55 -0700
    Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway DJ Delorie <dj@delorie.com> - 2015-07-21 20:37 -0400
      Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-07-21 18:47 -0700
  Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway Ian Yellowley <iany99@gmail.com> - 2015-07-21 14:35 -0700
    Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-07-21 15:22 -0700
      Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway Ian Yellowley <iany99@gmail.com> - 2015-07-22 13:42 -0700
        Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-07-22 18:48 -0400
          Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway lasselangwadtchristensen@gmail.com - 2015-07-22 17:33 -0700
            Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway Rob Gaddi <rgaddi@technologyhighland.invalid> - 2015-07-24 16:51 +0000
              Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-07-24 10:23 -0700
                Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-07-24 11:22 -0700
                Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2015-07-24 21:49 +0200
              Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway hamilton <hamilton@nothere.com> - 2015-07-24 12:45 -0600
        Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-07-22 16:59 -0700
          Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-07-22 21:30 -0400
      Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway lasselangwadtchristensen@gmail.com - 2015-07-22 15:30 -0700
        Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-07-22 18:53 -0400
        Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-07-22 19:49 -0700
          Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-07-22 23:20 -0400
            Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-07-23 03:49 -0500
              Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-07-23 03:26 -0700
                Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-07-23 12:09 -0400
                Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2015-07-23 21:38 +0200
                Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-07-23 16:36 -0400
                Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2015-07-23 23:56 +0200
                Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-07-24 13:25 -0400
              Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-07-23 11:32 -0400
  Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway Ed Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2015-07-21 20:00 -0700
  Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-07-22 00:57 -0400
  Re: Semi-OT: Hackers Remotely Kill a Jeep on the Highway Mel Wilson <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2015-07-26 15:06 +0000

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