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Re: Somewheres

From Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
Newsgroups alt.usage.english, sci.lang
Subject Re: Somewheres
Date 2024-09-04 19:06 -0700
Organization Dis One
Message-ID <mn.247a7e89dc4d832c.127094@snitoo> (permalink)
References (4 earlier) <f5140de8d161885842798961deb38a46@www.novabbs.com> <m31q2260rz.fsf@leonis4.robolove.meer.net> <vb4ejj$2rvka$1@dont-email.me> <slrnvdc5jt.ddb.naddy@lorvorc.mips.inka.de> <slrnvdha4j.6rm.naddy@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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Christian Weisgerber suggested that ...
> On 2024-09-02, Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>
>> Have you ever wondered why the third person plural present tense
>> forms of Italian verbs are so strangely stressed, e.g., pàrlano
>> instead of *parlàno?  And where is that -o from anyway?
>
> So that was an example where something was added at the end of
> words.  I don't intend this as an invalidation of the general
> observation that there is a longtime trend of phonetic erosion, but
> I want to show that actual language history is complex and circuitous.
>
> Here's another one.  From the King James Version, you may be familiar
> with the second person singular indicative ending -(e)st (-t in
> some verbs), "thou thinkest" etc.  German also has -st across the
> second person singular.  Clearly, -st is an old 2SG marker...
>
> ... Except, Slavic has -š there.  Latin, not a language to drop final
> -t, has -s.  Even Gothic has -s, and if you look at the variants
> in early Old English and Old High German, the original 2SG ending
> is also -s.
>
> Where did the -t come from?  There are two hypotheses.  One, dismissed
> by Ringe (and I'm skeptical as well), is from missegmentation when
> the subject pronoun (tu ~ þu) followed the verb.  The other involves
> the appearance of -s-t due to sound changes in some preterite-present
> verbs, reanalysis as -st, and spread to other verbs.  Remarkably,
> this appears to have happened independently in both English and
> German.

I relate all this discussion to what Charlton Laird (sr, IIRC) 
considered two fundamental principles of language change:

1)  People are lazy, leading to simplification.
2)  People are inventive, leading to new words and new constructions.


/dps

-- 
Rule #0: Don't be on fire.
 In case of fire, exit the building before tweeting about it.
(Sighting reported by Adam F)

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Somewheres Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2024-08-31 09:45 +1000
  Re: Somewheres jerry.friedman99@gmail.com (jerryfriedman) - 2024-08-31 02:37 +0000
    Re: Somewheres Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> - 2024-08-31 08:01 +0200
      Re: Somewheres occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2024-08-31 09:27 +0200
        Re: Somewheres Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2024-08-31 19:12 +0200
          Re: Somewheres Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2024-08-31 17:26 -0400
            Re: Somewheres Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2024-09-01 04:26 -0300
            Re: Somewheres Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> - 2024-09-02 12:08 +0100
              Re: Somewheres Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> - 2024-09-02 14:00 +0200
                Re: Somewheres Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> - 2024-09-03 09:32 +0100
              Re: Somewheres Janet <nobody@home.com> - 2024-09-02 14:23 +0100
                Re: Somewheres Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> - 2024-09-02 16:28 +0100
                Re: Somewheres Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2024-09-03 04:50 +0200
          Re: Somewheres Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> - 2024-09-01 07:59 +0200
            Re: Somewheres Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2024-09-01 18:25 +0200
              Re: Somewheres Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> - 2024-09-01 19:03 +0200
                Re: Somewheres Chris Elvidge <chris@x550c.mshome.net> - 2024-09-01 19:02 +0100
                Re: Somewheres musika <mUs1Ka@NOSPAMexcite.com> - 2024-09-01 20:12 +0100
                Re: Somewheres Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> - 2024-09-01 22:55 +0200
                Re: Somewheres Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2024-09-03 04:13 +0200
            Re: Somewheres lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> - 2024-09-01 10:31 -0600
              Re: Somewheres Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> - 2024-09-01 19:05 +0200
                Re: Somewheres occam <occam@nowhere.nix> - 2024-09-02 10:10 +0200
                Re: Somewheres Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> - 2024-09-02 12:11 +0100
              Re: Somewheres Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2024-09-02 09:59 +1000
                Re: Somewheres Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> - 2024-09-02 08:26 +0200
                Re: Somewheres Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2024-09-02 23:11 +1000
                Re: Somewheres Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> - 2024-09-02 17:22 +0200
                Re: Somewheres jerry.friedman99@gmail.com (jerryfriedman) - 2024-09-02 14:31 +0000
                Re: Somewheres Rich Ulrich <rich.ulrich@comcast.net> - 2024-09-02 13:06 -0400
              Re: Somewheres Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2024-09-03 04:14 +0200
                Re: Somewheres lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> - 2024-09-02 23:26 -0600
          Re: Somewheres Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2024-09-03 20:11 +0300
            Re: Somewheres Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2024-09-04 10:25 +0200
        Re: Somewheres Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> - 2024-09-02 13:09 +0200
          Re: Somewheres Paul Carmichael <wibbleypants@gmail.com> - 2024-09-02 11:22 +0000
      Re: Somewheres Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2024-08-31 21:50 +1000
        Re: Somewheres wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) - 2024-08-31 20:20 +0000
        Re: Somewheres lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> - 2024-08-31 15:41 -0600
          Re: Somewheres Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2024-09-01 09:44 +1000
            Re: Somewheres Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> - 2024-09-01 00:40 -0400
            Re: Somewheres Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> - 2024-09-01 08:09 +0200
          Re: Somewheres wollman@hergotha.csail.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) - 2024-09-01 00:37 +0000
        Re: Somewheres Bill Day <extree@verizon.net> - 2024-09-01 10:43 -0400
          Re: Somewheres Chris Elvidge <chris@x550c.mshome.net> - 2024-09-01 19:03 +0100
          Re: Somewheres Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> - 2024-09-02 11:48 +0100
            Re: Somewheres lar3ryca <larry@invalid.ca> - 2024-09-02 23:32 -0600
    Re: Somewheres Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> - 2024-08-31 06:36 -0700
  Re: Somewheres Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> - 2024-08-31 14:43 +1200
    Re: Somewheres Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> - 2024-08-31 08:05 +0200
  Re: Somewheres Paul Carmichael <wibbleypants@gmail.com> - 2024-08-31 15:53 +0000
    Re: Somewheres Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2024-09-01 09:45 +1000
      Re: Somewheres Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> - 2024-09-02 11:49 +0100
        Re: Somewheres Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2024-09-02 23:12 +1000
          Re: Somewheres Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> - 2024-09-02 17:23 +0200
    Re: Somewheres Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2024-09-01 09:49 +1000
      Re: Somewheres Paul Carmichael <wibbleypants@gmail.com> - 2024-09-01 08:37 +0000
        Re: Somewheres bebercito@aol.com (Bebercito) - 2024-09-01 12:05 +0000
          Re: Somewheres Paul Carmichael <wibbleypants@gmail.com> - 2024-09-01 13:07 +0000
            Re: Somewheres bebercito@aol.com (Bebercito) - 2024-09-01 14:24 +0000
              Re: Somewheres Paul Carmichael <wibbleypants@gmail.com> - 2024-09-01 15:47 +0000
        Re: Somewheres Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> - 2024-09-01 15:39 +0200
          Re: Somewheres Paul Carmichael <wibbleypants@gmail.com> - 2024-09-01 15:49 +0000
        Re: Somewheres jerry.friedman99@gmail.com (jerryfriedman) - 2024-09-01 19:27 +0000
          Re: Somewheres Madhu <enometh@meer.net> - 2024-09-02 11:43 +0530
            Re: Somewheres Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2024-09-02 23:29 +1000
              Re: Somewheres Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> - 2024-09-02 17:13 +0200
              Re: Somewheres Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> - 2024-09-02 17:29 +0200
                Re: Somewheres Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> - 2024-09-02 16:34 +0100
                Re: Somewheres Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> - 2024-09-02 18:00 +0200
                Re: Somewheres Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> - 2024-09-03 09:31 +0100
                Re: Somewheres Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> - 2024-09-02 18:55 +0200
                Re: Somewheres Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> - 2024-09-03 09:30 +0100
                Re: Somewheres Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> - 2024-09-03 18:19 +0200
              Re: Somewheres Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> - 2024-09-02 16:31 +0100
                Re: Somewheres Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> - 2024-09-02 19:01 +0200
                Re: Somewheres Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> - 2024-09-03 09:33 +0100
              Re: Somewheres Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> - 2024-09-02 19:26 +0000
                Re: Somewheres jerry.friedman99@gmail.com (jerryfriedman) - 2024-09-02 20:12 +0000
                Re: Somewheres jerry.friedman99@gmail.com (jerryfriedman) - 2024-09-02 20:25 +0000
                Re: Somewheres Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> - 2024-09-04 18:17 +0000
                Re: Somewheres Sergio Gatti <sergiogatti@meine-wahrheit-deine-wahrheit.de> - 2024-09-04 21:51 +0200
                Re: Somewheres Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> - 2024-09-05 20:42 +0000
                Re: Somewheres Sergio Gatti <sergiogatti@meine-wahrheit-deine-wahrheit.de> - 2024-09-06 08:17 +0200
                Re: Somewheres Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> - 2024-09-14 15:57 +0000
                Re: Somewheres Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> - 2024-09-22 15:37 +0200
                Re: Somewheres Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2024-09-23 09:48 +1000
                Re: Somewheres Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> - 2024-09-24 08:11 +0200
                Re: Somewheres Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> - 2024-09-05 08:04 +0200
                Re: Somewheres Aidan Kehoe <kehoea@parhasard.net> - 2024-09-05 07:41 +0100
                Re: Somewheres Helmut Richter <hr.usenet@email.de> - 2024-09-05 11:06 +0200
                Re: Somewheres Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> - 2024-09-05 12:20 +0200
                Re: Somewheres Helmut Richter <hr.usenet@email.de> - 2024-09-05 12:28 +0200
                Re: Somewheres Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> - 2024-09-04 17:54 +0000
                Re: Somewheres jerry.friedman99@gmail.com (jerryfriedman) - 2024-09-05 14:28 +0000
                Re: Somewheres Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> - 2024-09-14 13:59 +0000
              Re: Somewheres Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> - 2024-09-02 19:48 +0000
                Re: Somewheres Silvano <Silvano@noncisonopernessuno.it> - 2024-09-03 08:59 +0200
                Re: Somewheres Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> - 2024-09-04 18:36 +0000
                Re: Somewheres Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com> - 2024-09-04 19:06 -0700
              Re: Somewheres Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> - 2024-09-03 09:17 +0200
                Re: Somewheres Helmut Richter <hr.usenet@email.de> - 2024-09-03 10:51 +0200
                Re: Somewheres Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> - 2024-09-03 18:25 +0200
                Re: Somewheres nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) - 2024-09-03 21:48 +0200
                Re: Somewheres Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> - 2024-09-04 10:29 +0200
                Re: Somewheres Adam Funk <a24061@ducksburg.com> - 2024-09-05 12:00 +0100
                Re: Somewheres Bertel Lund Hansen <gadekryds@lundhansen.dk> - 2024-09-05 15:12 +0200
            Re: Somewheres jerry.friedman99@gmail.com (jerryfriedman) - 2024-09-02 15:37 +0000
              Re: Somewheres Madhu <enometh@meer.net> - 2024-09-03 22:19 +0530
      Re: Somewheres dougstaples@gmx.com (LionelEdwards) - 2024-09-01 15:50 +0000
        Re: Somewheres dougstaples@gmx.com (LionelEdwards) - 2024-09-01 16:25 +0000
        Re: Somewheres Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org> - 2024-09-02 10:08 +1000
  Re: Somewheres bertietaylor@myyahoo.com (bertietaylor) - 2024-09-01 06:01 +0000
    Re: Somewheres bertietaylor@myyahoo.com (bertietaylor) - 2024-09-03 23:39 +0000

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