Re: SAFEcode

From	David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: SAFEcode
Date	2015-04-20 13:37 +0200
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<mh2ocr$pil$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(18 earlier) <4d8c6c38-caa6-43d3-bc65-a6fb84cdef73@googlegroups.com> <mh2gp7$ruu$1@dont-email.me> <920ac546-ea78-464f-bc36-6e1d5709b48c@googlegroups.com> <mh2kmu$bfr$1@dont-email.me> <4f95b162-56fd-4c34-b53a-eed666193d39@googlegroups.com>

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On 20/04/15 12:58, Malcolm McLean wrote:
> On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 11:35:14 AM UTC+1, David Brown wrote:
>> On 20/04/15 11:39, Malcolm McLean wrote:
>>
>> State the problem in a way that actually makes sense.  Define the sizes
>> - don't wibble and waffle about English texts.  Define the
>> distributions.  Define the requirements and the restrictions for the
>> algorithms.  And define what you mean by "optimal".
>>
> The whole point is that  you can't "define the distributions". All you've got is
> a real world requirement concerning real world data. It's a specific as it
> can be - we know the population from which our sample is drawn, but we
> also know that the population is highly stratified, and we can't hope to take
> an unbiased sample. However we define our sampling strategy, there will
> be some bias.
>>
>> I'll give you some clues here.  "Optimal" might mean that the average
>> cost is lowest - this is heavily dependent on the distribution.  It
>> might mean that the worst-case cost is lowest - which is totally
>> dependent on the maximum size.  It might mean using weighted costs
>> (where short strings get heavier weights), either for lowest worst-case
>> or for best average cost.  (And average could mean "mean" or "median".)
>>
> You've got a cost function. 

How small a teaspoon do I need to use here?

You made a cost function for a single run - basically the sum of all
allocations and re-allocations.  That's fine, everyone understood it
after you wrote it down (which was a few posts after you gave the
original problem).

If we are to make an optimal strategy or algorithm, we need a cost
function that covers /all/ runs.  Not just /one/ run - /all/ runs.

Let's try and explain it in a simple example - sorting a sequence of
size 8.  If the given sequence is "a, b, c, e, d, f, g, h", then the
optimum strategy is to swap elements 3 and 4 (numbering from 0 - this is
a C newsgroup!).  You can't beat that algorithm - it is optimal.

But is that much use to anyone?  No, because it is optimal for a single
case.  To be useful, we need a /global/ cost function, such as the
average number of swaps needed for all 8! permutations of inputs.  We
can try to find an optimal algorithm for this global cost function, and
end up with something like quicksort.  Alternatively, we might use the
worst-case number of swaps for all 8! permutations, in which case
quicksort comes out badly and mergesort or insertionsort are better
choices.  Maybe we know something about the distribution, rather than
assuming it is random (i.e., considering all possible permutations) - if
we assume there is only one or two swaps, then bubblesort comes out best.

Do you understand this, or do you need more explanation?  Do you see the
point yet?

>>
>> That's just some ideas for what "optimal" could mean here - but you
>> haven't even hinted at what you want (despite me asking many times).
>> Nor have you given appropriate details and limits in the problem in
>> order for most of these options for "optimal" to make sense - and to the
>> extent that they do make sense, it is immediately obvious that there is
>> no optimal strategy.  I outlined a proof earlier - feel free to make it
>> rigorous if you like.
>>
> Let's run with the worst case scenario, the enemy with N bytes of text
> to throw at us, which he distributes as he pleases, knowing our algorithm.
> That'll give you some handle on how to at least approach the problem.

When you are dealing with an "enemy", who knows the algorithm, you are
making a totally different sort of problem - it is game theory, a
prisoners' dilemma, rather than an algorithm for handling a problem.

And with these specific details, the answer is clear, simple, and
utterly useless.

The allocator needs to be able to handle data up to size N.  The best
(lowest cost) in this case is N, by making a single allocation of size
N.  There is no way to get a lower cost than this when the enemy throws
size N at us.  So N is the lowest bound for the worst-case cost.  If we
always allocate size N at the beginning, then we have enough space
regardless of the size we are given - and we do not raise the worst case
cost above N.  Thus by always allocating size N, we have minimised the
worst case sample cost, which is our global cost function.

As I said, clear, simple, and utterly useless.

Now, do you see the importance of giving a sensible global cost
function?  And perhaps the importance of giving a sensible distribution?

>>
>> Of course, even if you /do/ give us a problem that makes sense and can
>> be answered, that does not mean that I /will/ answer it.  I might have
>> done had it come earlier, but it has been such a time-consuming ordeal
>> trying to correct and explain your fundamental misunderstandings about
>> maths, English language, problems, and algorithms, that I am unlikely to
>> bother.
>>
>> If you want to be treated seriously here, you need to start reading
>> other people's posts (like mine, for example), and understanding what we
>> are saying and why you have been wrong in almost every single thing you
>> have said in this thread.  And you need to start admitting that, so that
>> you can start learning something here.
>>
> You're desire seems to be to get Malcolm to admit that he is wrong.
> But the challenge is there. I'm not hearing anything convincing.

You have been shown to be wrong on a wide variety of your statements in
this thread.  Just read back in the thread, and see how often multiple
people have challenged or corrected you, and you have responded with
more white noise or simply ignoring them.

I realise that getting you to admit to being wrong is a bit like asking
fir to post in English, but I haven't given up hope yet.

> 
> Let's start with the enemy hypothesis. The messages are being sent by an enemy.
> Our enemy has N bytes at his disposal. He might have infinite bytes, but then
> he can impose an infinite cost on us, and there's nothing we can do. 
> 
> Another bit of information is that the messages have to be human-composed English
> language messages. Ok, you can't cope with that information yet, you don't understand
> how to incorporate it. Or you do understand and you're teasing me. One of the two.
>  So forget it for the time being.
>  
> Let's assume that our strategy is to start by 1, and increment the amount by 
> a coefficient each time. Unless you can propose a better strategy, that is.
> 
> On that model, can we write function that returns a cost, given a growth coefficient 
> and an enemy attack of N bytes? 
>

Thread

Re: SAFEcode Robbie Hatley <see.my.sig@for.my.address> - 2015-04-14 00:14 -0700
  Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-14 10:33 +0200
    Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-14 02:01 -0700
      Re: SAFEcode Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-14 10:23 +0100
      Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-14 11:49 +0200
        Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-14 04:31 -0700
          Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-14 14:54 +0200
            Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-14 06:39 -0700
              Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-14 16:10 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-14 08:11 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-14 23:58 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-15 01:25 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-15 11:11 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-15 02:35 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-15 13:52 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-15 06:04 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-15 08:08 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-15 08:57 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-15 18:24 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-15 09:45 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-04-15 19:09 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-15 22:29 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-16 08:23 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-16 10:44 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-16 11:22 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-19 15:33 +0000
                Re: SAFEcode Steve Thompson <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 04:38 +0000
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-16 14:12 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-17 09:28 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-17 09:33 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-17 02:08 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-17 09:43 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-17 08:04 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-17 17:08 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-04-17 08:07 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-15 12:29 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-15 22:56 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-16 10:29 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-16 04:46 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-16 13:08 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-16 08:42 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-16 16:47 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-16 16:53 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-16 10:52 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-16 22:11 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-17 10:22 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-17 02:17 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-17 05:56 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-17 04:37 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-17 10:04 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-17 08:38 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-17 20:52 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-18 13:16 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-18 04:22 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-18 14:08 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-18 06:00 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-18 21:42 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-18 17:47 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-19 00:11 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-19 12:52 +0000
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-19 09:10 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-19 07:21 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-19 12:54 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-19 11:18 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-20 09:58 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-20 08:09 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-20 13:06 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-19 07:32 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-19 09:03 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-19 16:30 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-19 12:58 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-19 05:37 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-18 08:00 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-18 19:28 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-18 09:37 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-19 11:37 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-19 09:56 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-04-22 15:49 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-22 18:13 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-04-28 12:46 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-20 16:50 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-17 10:31 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-17 21:09 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-17 19:01 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-18 15:18 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-18 09:00 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-18 21:52 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-19 00:02 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-04-19 00:40 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-19 03:52 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-04-21 09:02 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-19 12:58 +0000
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-19 07:25 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-19 15:51 +0000
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-19 23:22 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-19 16:26 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-20 00:48 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-20 09:15 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-20 00:39 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-20 10:33 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-20 01:55 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-20 11:28 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-20 02:39 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-20 12:35 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-20 03:58 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-20 13:37 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-20 06:04 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-20 15:37 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-20 06:52 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-20 16:23 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-20 07:32 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-20 22:42 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-20 21:56 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-21 09:21 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-21 01:00 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-21 10:37 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-21 01:59 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-21 12:21 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-21 03:45 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-21 10:05 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-21 12:14 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-21 08:18 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-21 08:51 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-22 09:44 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-22 01:38 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-22 03:45 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-22 02:13 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-22 04:29 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-22 03:29 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-22 10:30 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-22 09:13 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-22 13:03 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-22 11:38 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-22 15:25 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-22 21:49 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-22 16:17 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-22 22:33 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-22 16:56 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-23 09:24 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-23 02:25 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-04-23 08:24 -0400
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-23 06:18 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.lists@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-23 14:47 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-23 07:16 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-23 17:20 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-23 08:44 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-25 10:14 +0000
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-25 04:04 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-25 12:22 +0000
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-25 10:53 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-23 16:48 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-24 12:49 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.lists@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-23 20:40 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-23 13:03 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-23 23:49 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-24 01:07 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.lists@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-24 11:51 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-24 04:29 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-24 13:20 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-24 06:48 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-25 10:16 +0000
                Re: SAFEcode Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-24 15:48 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-24 10:05 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-24 22:59 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-26 00:16 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-24 04:39 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-24 22:59 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-23 08:17 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-22 16:49 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-22 17:01 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-04-22 17:51 -0400
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-22 17:35 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-22 17:45 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-23 09:29 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-23 08:29 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-23 08:55 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-23 21:11 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-22 06:23 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-22 13:08 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-22 20:17 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-22 12:43 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-23 11:52 +0000
                Re: SAFEcode Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-23 13:53 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-25 10:18 +0000
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-25 21:37 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-20 12:05 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-20 04:28 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-20 04:38 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-20 12:40 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-20 14:11 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-20 06:31 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-20 16:31 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode jadill33@gmail.com - 2015-04-20 09:38 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-20 22:52 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-04-20 11:10 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-20 22:43 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-20 22:59 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-21 09:27 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-21 15:12 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-21 07:31 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-21 16:43 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-21 08:01 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-21 22:29 +0000
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-21 11:09 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-21 10:13 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2015-04-21 10:22 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-21 16:51 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-22 02:52 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-21 14:44 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-21 16:58 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-22 01:11 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-21 17:31 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-22 10:09 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-22 10:50 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-22 11:12 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-22 11:37 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-22 05:54 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-22 15:31 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-22 06:48 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-22 16:29 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-22 16:13 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-22 08:22 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-22 16:25 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-22 10:35 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-22 13:24 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-23 01:18 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-23 06:11 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-23 09:36 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-22 08:38 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-22 13:04 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-22 09:52 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-22 16:23 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-22 10:28 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-22 08:16 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-22 13:53 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-22 12:45 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-22 16:44 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-21 22:58 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-22 09:53 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2015-04-21 10:15 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-21 13:57 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-21 23:01 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-21 23:46 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-22 01:49 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-22 08:32 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-22 10:02 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-21 12:06 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-21 20:18 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-21 12:30 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-21 21:30 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-21 13:39 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-21 20:21 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-22 10:24 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-22 09:46 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2015-04-22 02:57 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-22 08:42 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-19 16:19 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-19 09:08 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-16 08:55 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-16 11:03 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-16 11:35 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-17 10:28 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-17 09:51 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2015-04-20 11:28 +0300
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-17 10:32 +0200
              Re: SAFEcode Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-14 15:24 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-14 08:03 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-14 18:48 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-14 12:43 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-04-14 21:52 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-14 13:16 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-14 21:39 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-15 01:20 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-15 01:29 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-15 01:32 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-15 08:17 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-15 09:13 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-04-15 18:33 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-15 10:02 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-04-15 20:55 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-15 19:27 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2015-04-20 11:53 +0300
                Re: SAFEcode Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-04-16 14:51 +1200
                Re: SAFEcode Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-04-17 02:13 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-04-15 08:14 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-14 21:02 +0100
              Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-14 08:33 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-14 08:54 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-14 11:43 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-14 12:41 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-14 13:08 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-14 14:02 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-14 15:29 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-15 10:03 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-15 10:02 +0200
      Re: SAFEcode Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2015-04-20 11:13 +0300
  Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-14 13:03 +0100

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