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Groups > comp.lang.c > #60144

Re: Readability part II - comments

From Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: Readability part II - comments
Date 2015-04-16 16:45 +0100
Organization go, ion artisan!
Message-ID <mgoldb$49v$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References (5 earlier) <mgo6pv$djl$1@dont-email.me> <mgo77v$ek9$1@dont-email.me> <mgo86j$i4m$1@dont-email.me> <mgo9f8$n02$1@dont-email.me> <552FCD25.4020200@verizon.net>

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On 16/04/15 15:54, James Kuyper wrote:
> On 04/16/2015 08:21 AM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>> On 16/04/15 13:00, James Kuyper wrote:
>>> On 04/16/2015 07:43 AM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>> On 16/04/15 12:36, James Kuyper wrote:
>>>>> On 04/16/2015 07:18 AM, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>>>>>> On 16/04/15 12:09, James Kuyper wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If we were to require English fluency of all programmers, we'd
>>>>>>  > be in big trouble.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes. We'd have to fix the education system. It's a terrible thought,
>>>>>> isn't it?
>>>>>
>>>>> How would that help? None of the people I'm referring to used our
>>>>> education system - they used their home country's education system,
>>>>> which we have no power to fix.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But if we fixed /our/ education system (for local values of "our"), we
>>>> wouldn't need to import programmers. This would be good for our local
>>>> economy. And if /their/ education system (for local values of "their")
>>>> were to stop them from being able to export programmers, perhaps they'd
>>>> fix /their/ education system too, so that they could. I see wins all round.
>>>
>>> We're importing their programmers because their education system is
>>> producing programmers good enough that we're willing to import them. Is
>>> that really evidence that their education system needs fixing?
>>
>> Your argument appears to be that English fluency should not be a
>> requirement for programmers working on English-based projects because
>> you can't get enough programmers who are fluent in English. Clearly
>> /something/ is broken /somewhere/.
>
> Sorry - I conceded a point, but only informed you of the fact
> implicitly, by failing to object, which is a lousy way to communicate.

And you appear to have slightly misunderstood my point, which is 
obviously my fault, so I'll fix that below.

> I thought your original comment about "the" education system was in
> reference to teaching English. When I realized you were talking about
> the teaching of computer programming, I also realized that you were
> right about that. We wouldn't need to import programmers if our
> education system were producing enough adequately-trained programmers.

1) Did I say "the education system"? I did, didn't I? Oops - I 
apologise. Clearly "the" education system means nothing in a global 
context - there are many education systems, all of which have faults;
2) Yes, the teaching of computer programming needs to be improved, but:
3) So does the teaching of English!

To summarise, what we really need is a sufficient supply of computer 
programmers who are capable of:

(a) programming;
(b) communicating effectively in the (human) language used by the 
project team.

This subthread is a witness to the fact that we have yet to solve (b), 
let alone (a)! :-)  But I hope we've managed at last to stumble across 
the line.

-- 
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

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Thread

Readability part II - comments Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-04-15 11:48 -0700
  Re: Readability part II - comments David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-16 10:42 +0200
  Re: Readability part II - comments Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-04-16 22:01 +1200
    Re: Readability part II - comments Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-16 11:40 +0100
      Re: Readability part II - comments James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-04-16 07:09 -0400
        Re: Readability part II - comments Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-16 12:18 +0100
          Re: Readability part II - comments James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-04-16 07:36 -0400
            Re: Readability part II - comments Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-16 12:43 +0100
              Re: Readability part II - comments James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-04-16 08:00 -0400
                Re: Readability part II - comments Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-16 13:21 +0100
                Re: Readability part II - comments James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-04-16 10:54 -0400
                Re: Readability part II - comments Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-16 16:45 +0100
                Re: Readability part II - comments Steve Thompson <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 18:00 +0000
          Re: Readability part II - comments Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-16 04:52 -0700
            Re: Readability part II - comments Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-16 16:40 +0100
              Re: Readability part II - comments Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-18 03:33 -0700
            Re: Readability part II - comments Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-04-16 21:10 -0500
      Re: Readability part II - comments Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-16 17:20 +0100
        Re: Readability part II - comments Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-16 17:53 +0100
      Re: Readability part II - comments Steve Thompson <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 17:34 +0000
        Re: Readability part II - comments Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-16 19:15 +0100
          Re: Readability part II - comments Steve Thompson <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 18:25 +0000
    Re: Readability part II - comments David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-16 12:45 +0200
    Re: Readability part II - comments Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-04-16 17:31 +0000
      Re: Readability part II - comments David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-17 10:48 +0200
        Re: Readability part II - comments Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-04-18 06:35 +0000
          Re: Readability part II - comments Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-04-18 19:47 +1200
            Re: Readability part II - comments Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-04-18 12:54 +0000
              Re: Readability part II - comments Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-04-19 08:43 +1200
                Re: Readability part II - comments Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-04-19 12:36 +1200
                Re: Readability part II - comments Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-04-20 13:58 +0000
                Re: Readability part II - comments Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-04-20 21:02 +0000
                Re: Readability part II - comments Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-04-20 23:38 +0000
                Re: Readability part II - comments Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-04-21 01:12 +0000
                Re: Readability part II - comments Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-04-21 16:39 +1200
    Re: Readability part II - comments Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-04-18 14:21 -0400
  Re: Readability part II - comments August Karlstrom <fusionfile@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 19:18 +0200
    Re: Readability part II - comments Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-04-17 16:16 +0000
  Re: Readability part II - comments John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2015-04-20 09:19 -0700
    Re: Readability part II - comments asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-04-20 11:15 -0700
  Re: Readability part II - comments David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-04-20 11:37 -0700
    Re: Readability part II - comments Steve Thompson <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2015-04-22 02:02 +0000
      Re: Readability part II - comments David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-04-22 09:48 -0700
  Re: Readability part II - comments Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-04-21 12:40 -0700
    Re: Readability part II - comments Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-04-21 21:24 +0000
      Re: Readability part II - comments Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-04-23 21:57 -0700
  Re: Readability part II - comments "Skybuck Flying" <skybuck2000@hotmail.com> - 2015-04-24 09:14 +0200

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