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Groups > comp.lang.c > #55045

Re: the language

From JohnF <john@please.see.sig.for.email.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: the language
Date 2014-12-19 09:31 +0000
Organization PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
Message-ID <m70r8v$290$1@reader1.panix.com> (permalink)
References (11 earlier) <m6r9p1$kl0$1@reader1.panix.com> <kfnbnn28ful.fsf@x-alumni2.alumni.caltech.edu> <5yhkw.397413$il4.43434@fx06.am4> <m7020g$nlm$1@reader1.panix.com> <KnRkw.194492$6H3.93390@fx35.am4>

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Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> wrote:
> JohnF wrote:
>> Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> wrote:
> <snip>
>>> It is my contention that 'good undefined behaviour' can exist, and that a
>>> programming language that prevents this is a hindrance to the solving of
>>> some real-world problems.  <<snip>>
>> 
>> Okay, I now see your original remark said "...very difficult...",
>> and now you're saying "...hindrance...", and I'd agree that C's
>> easier to program in than the same problem solved by a Turing machine,
> 
> I'm sorry. I realise that my use of language is not as precise as either you 
> or I would like it to be. I also realise that precision matters. I'm doing 
> the best I can. It may not be good enough. I am certainly not trying to be 
> evasive.
> 
> At heart, my contention is simply that, without undefined behaviour, there 
> are some things we can't do in C, Turing-complete or not. For example, it is 
> simply not possible, in ISO C, to write, say, a device driver for my 
> notional 3D-position-sensing device. It can't be done.
> 
>> or even by just about any assembly language. But I'd disagree that
>> C's ease of use is in any way correlated with (and certainly not
>> caused by) its occasional undefinedness (which is instead related to
>> its translation to machine code on different hardware architectures,
>> whereby a consistent operational semantics becomes difficult
>> or not possible).
>>   And I'd agree with TR that you "refuse to be pinned down".
> 
> I don't recall refusing. That sounds terribly wilful.
> No, I'm just trying to make a point about UB, and obviously
> not doing it very well.

I'm not precisely sure which of your remarks TR was referring to
with his phrase I quoted. But my agreement was, as stated below,
based on your programming "challenge" in reply to my earlier post.
I see above it's referring to your "notional 3D-position-sensing device".
And I recall seeing you discuss this in some other posts I haven't read.
Maybe it's described more clearly there  (continued below)...

>> I had (and still have) no idea whatsoever about what you were
>> asking/challenging in your followup to my earlier post.
> 
> If you have a message ID, I could have another crack at it if you care 
> enough. But I can't guarantee to be any clearer second time around - not 
> because I don't want to be, but because I'm struggling to identify what it 
> is that's unclear about my writing.

...No, don't bother. Let me just quote and comment on two of your above
remarks:
   > my contention is simply that, without undefined behaviour, there 
   > are some things we can't do in C, Turing-complete or not.
   > For example, it is simply not possible, in ISO C, to write,
   > say, a device driver for my notional 3D-position-sensing device.
   > It can't be done.
I guarantee you you're wrong, Wrong, WRONG!!! I guarantee it!!!
More accurately, it's the last 75 years or so of the entire planet's
population of computer scientists that guarantees it. Every last one
of them. You obviously haven't taken any computer science courses,
or independently studied computability and the ideas around Turing
completeness. (And, just in case your "undefined behavior" corresponds
to what's more usually called non-deterministic finite automata, let me
point out that every such nfa is provably reducible to a corresponding
deterministic finite automaton.)
   Now, I'm making some pretty pointed remarks above, without knowing
you at all. But, no problem! I'd love, Love, LOVE to be proven wrong,
and for you to rigorously demonstrate a function that's computable
in "C with undefined behavior" (unless your "undefined behavior"
corresponds to what's called an Oracle, but then it wouldn't really
be "undefined") but not computable in C. You do that, and you'll
create a worldwide sensation. It'll be a small price for me to pay
to look like an idiot. Go ahead -- make me look like an idiot.
I double-dare you! And I'll be double-sure to listen to your
Turing Award Lecture. But until then, I'm not really interested
in poring over your code or your functional specifications, etc,
to find where you tripped up over something or other.
-- 
John Forkosh  ( mailto:  j@f.com  where j=john and f=forkosh )

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the language Rosario193 <Rosario@invalid.invalid> - 2014-11-26 21:54 +0100
  Re: the language Rosario193 <Rosario@invalid.invalid> - 2014-11-26 21:56 +0100
    Re: the language John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2014-11-26 13:45 -0800
      Re: the language Rosario193 <Rosario@invalid.invalid> - 2014-11-28 11:52 +0100
      Re: the language "Bill Cunningham" <nospam@nspam.invalid> - 2014-12-01 23:25 -0500
      Re: the language "Bill Cunningham" <nospam@nspam.invalid> - 2014-12-02 00:56 -0500
        Re: the language Rosario193 <Rosario@invalid.invalid> - 2014-12-04 14:52 +0100
          Re: the language "Osmium" <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2014-12-04 08:07 -0600
            Re: the language Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2014-12-04 10:20 -0800
  Re: the language Mark Storkamp <mstorkamp@yahoo.com> - 2014-11-26 15:11 -0600
    Re: the language Rosario193 <Rosario@invalid.invalid> - 2014-11-28 12:16 +0100
      Re: the language Rosario193 <Rosario@invalid.invalid> - 2014-11-28 12:18 +0100
  Re: the language John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2014-11-26 13:12 -0800
    Re: the language Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2014-11-27 00:37 +0000
    Re: the language Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-11-27 01:13 +0000
  Re: the language raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2014-11-26 22:45 +0000
    Re: the language Rosario193 <Rosario@invalid.invalid> - 2014-11-27 07:41 +0100
  Re: the language Rosario193 <Rosario@invalid.invalid> - 2014-11-27 08:12 +0100
    Re: the language Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2014-11-27 01:43 -0600
      Re: the language Rosario193 <Rosario@invalid.invalid> - 2014-11-28 11:56 +0100
        Re: the language Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2014-11-28 09:08 -0600
          Re: the language Rosario193 <Rosario@invalid.invalid> - 2014-11-28 20:58 +0100
            Re: the language Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2014-11-28 19:22 -0600
              Re: the language Rosario193 <Rosario@invalid.invalid> - 2014-12-02 02:59 +0100
                Re: the language Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2014-12-02 02:53 +0000
                Re: the language Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2014-12-01 21:25 -0600
                Re: the language Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2014-12-02 06:22 +0000
  Re: the language Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2014-11-27 08:37 +0000
    Re: the language Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2014-11-27 16:44 +0800
      Re: the language gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2014-11-27 15:35 +0000
        Re: the language Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2014-11-27 11:58 -0500
          Re: the language jt@toerring.de (Jens Thoms Toerring) - 2014-11-27 22:44 +0000
            Re: the language Rosario193 <Rosario@invalid.invalid> - 2014-11-28 09:52 +0100
            Re: the language Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2014-11-28 12:53 -0800
          Re: the language Thomas Jahns <jahns@idontlikespam.dkrz.de> - 2014-11-28 10:07 +0100
            Re: the language Thomas Jahns <jahns@idontlikespam.dkrz.de> - 2014-11-28 14:57 +0100
            Re: the language Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2014-11-28 13:09 -0800
    Re: the language Rosario193 <Rosario@invalid.invalid> - 2014-11-28 12:01 +0100
      Re: the language Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2014-11-28 14:46 +0000
    Re: the language Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2014-11-28 13:16 -0800
      Re: the language gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2014-11-28 22:09 +0000
        Re: the language Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2014-12-01 03:40 -0800
      Re: the language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-11-28 14:42 -0800
        Re: the language Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2014-12-01 03:22 -0800
      Re: the language Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2014-11-28 23:09 +0000
        Re: the language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-11-28 16:14 -0800
          Re: the language BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2014-11-29 01:42 +0000
          Re: the language Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2014-11-29 01:42 +0000
            Re: the language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-11-29 04:03 -0800
          Re: the language Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2014-12-01 00:55 -0800
            Re: the language glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-12-02 05:42 +0000
        Re: the language Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2014-11-28 19:25 -0500
        Re: the language Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2014-12-01 03:21 -0800
          Re: the language Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2014-12-01 14:02 +0000
            Re: the language Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2014-12-05 10:18 -0800
              Re: the language Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2014-12-07 08:25 +0000
                Re: the language Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2014-12-07 10:44 -0800
                Re: the language Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2014-12-07 19:17 +0000
                Re: the language Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2014-12-07 15:48 -0800
                Re: the language Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2014-12-08 05:45 +0000
                Re: the language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-12-08 03:27 -0800
                Re: the language Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2014-12-08 06:00 +0000
                Re: the language Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2014-12-08 06:17 +0000
                Re: the language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-12-08 03:37 -0800
                Re: the language Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2014-12-08 12:53 +0000
                Re: the language Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2014-12-16 04:21 -0800
                Re: the language Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2014-12-16 12:43 +0000
                Re: the language Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2014-12-16 14:46 -0800
                Re: the language Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2014-12-17 00:23 +0000
                Re: the language JohnF <john@please.see.sig.for.email.com> - 2014-12-17 07:01 +0000
                Re: the language Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2014-12-17 07:22 +0000
                Re: the language Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-12-17 11:56 +0000
                Re: the language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-12-17 05:43 -0800
                Re: the language Rosario193 <Rosario@invalid.invalid> - 2014-12-18 18:30 +0100
                Re: the language Rosario193 <Rosario@invalid.invalid> - 2014-12-18 18:41 +0100
                Re: the language Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2014-12-17 14:34 +0000
                Re: the language Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-12-18 02:15 +0000
                Re: the language James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2014-12-17 22:31 -0500
                Re: the language Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-12-18 17:19 +0000
                Re: the language Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2014-12-18 07:52 +0000
                Re: the language Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-12-18 17:21 +0000
                Re: the language Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2014-12-18 18:15 +0000
                Re: the language Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-12-19 01:20 +0000
                Re: the language Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2014-12-19 07:48 +0000
                Re: the language James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2014-12-19 07:40 -0500
                Re: the language Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2014-12-19 12:54 +0000
                Re: the language James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2014-12-19 09:54 -0500
                Re: the language Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2014-12-19 15:19 +0000
                Re: the language James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2014-12-19 11:00 -0500
                Re: the language Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2014-12-19 16:13 +0000
                Re: the language James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2014-12-19 11:27 -0500
                Re: the language Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2014-12-19 16:45 +0000
                Re: the language James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2014-12-19 13:48 -0500
                Re: the language Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2014-12-19 19:10 +0000
                Re: the language Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2014-12-19 21:17 -0600
                Re: the language Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2014-12-19 21:32 -0600
                Re: the language Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-12-19 16:49 +0000
                Re: the language Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2014-12-19 17:00 +0000
                Re: the language James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2014-12-19 13:57 -0500
                Re: the language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-12-19 14:31 -0800
                Re: the language Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-12-19 20:29 +0000
                Re: the language Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2014-12-19 20:36 +0000
                Re: the language Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2014-12-17 07:18 -0800
                Re: the language Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2014-12-17 15:45 +0000
                Re: the language glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-12-17 16:50 +0000
                Re: the language raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2014-12-17 17:24 +0000
                Re: the language Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-18 02:07 -0600
                Re: the language raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2014-12-18 12:04 +0000
                Re: the language Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2014-12-18 08:06 -0500
                Re: the language James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2014-12-18 08:30 -0500
                Re: the language Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2014-12-19 00:11 -0500
                Re: the language glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-12-19 07:00 +0000
                Re: the language Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2014-12-19 08:43 -0800
                Re: the language Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2014-12-19 23:29 -0500
                Re: the language Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2014-12-20 00:37 -0800
                Re: the language gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2014-12-20 08:45 +0000
                Re: the language raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2014-12-20 09:45 +0000
                Re: the language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-12-20 03:17 -0800
                Re: the language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-12-18 06:09 -0800
                Re: the language raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2014-12-18 14:30 +0000
                Re: the language raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2014-12-18 14:23 +0000
                Re: the language Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2014-12-18 08:18 -0800
                Re: the language Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2014-12-20 12:22 -0500
                Re: the language James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2014-12-20 13:36 -0500
                Re: the language Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2014-12-20 11:43 -0800
                Re: the language Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2014-12-20 11:37 -0800
                Re: the language glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-12-20 20:10 +0000
                Re: the language Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-21 15:02 -0600
                Re: the language Kaz Kylheku <kaz@kylheku.com> - 2014-12-21 22:02 +0000
                Re: the language Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2014-12-21 23:49 -0600
                Re: the language raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2014-12-21 17:45 +0000
                Re: the language Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2014-12-18 10:29 -0800
                Re: the language Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-20 05:29 -0600
                Re: the language Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2014-12-20 11:32 -0800
                Re: the language Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2014-12-21 15:23 -0600
                Re: the language Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2014-12-22 23:39 -0800
                Re: the language glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-12-20 20:22 +0000
                Re: the language Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2014-12-18 10:24 -0800
                Re: the language Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2014-12-18 18:36 +0000
                Re: the language Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2014-12-19 09:24 -0800
                Re: the language Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2014-12-19 17:53 +0000
                Re: the language Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2014-12-20 11:48 -0800
                Re: the language JohnF <john@please.see.sig.for.email.com> - 2014-12-19 02:20 +0000
                Re: the language Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2014-12-19 08:31 +0000
                Re: the language JohnF <john@please.see.sig.for.email.com> - 2014-12-19 09:31 +0000
                Re: the language Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2014-12-19 10:10 +0000
                Re: the language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-12-19 07:08 -0800
                Re: the language JohnF <john@please.see.sig.for.email.com> - 2014-12-20 06:39 +0000
                Re: the language John Forkosh <forkosh@panix.com> - 2014-12-20 07:32 +0000
                Re: the language Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-01-04 17:02 +0000
                Re: the language James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-04 12:40 -0500
                Re: the language Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-01-04 18:02 +0000
                Re: the language James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-05 09:47 -0500
                Re: the language Greg Martin <greg.at.softsprocket@dot.com> - 2015-01-05 15:14 +0000
                Re: the language Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-05 08:42 -0800
                Re: the language glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-01-06 00:14 +0000
                Re: the language James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-05 13:19 -0500
                Re: the language Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-01-04 15:59 -0500
                Re: the language Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-01-04 14:30 -0800
                Re: the language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-01-04 15:44 -0800
                Re: the language James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-01-05 13:36 -0500
  Re: the language Rosario193 <Rosario@invalid.invalid> - 2014-11-28 12:07 +0100
  Re: the language "ocq (an evil corporate man)" <ocq@maili.ng> - 2014-12-02 23:16 +0100
    Re: the language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-12-03 02:23 -0800
      Re: the language "ocq (an evil corporate man)" <ocq@maili.ng> - 2014-12-03 15:55 +0100
      Re: the language Nobody <nobody@nowhere.invalid> - 2014-12-03 15:42 +0000
        Re: the language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-12-04 04:49 -0800
          Re: the language Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2014-12-04 09:07 -0800
            Re: the language Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2014-12-04 10:08 -0800
              Re: the language Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2014-12-04 11:49 -0800
                Re: the language Rosario193 <Rosario@invalid.invalid> - 2014-12-05 12:32 +0100
          Re: the language raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2014-12-04 22:17 +0000
  Re: the language Rosario193 <Rosario@invalid.invalid> - 2014-12-18 18:17 +0100
    Re: the language Richard Heathfield <invalid@see.sig.invalid> - 2014-12-18 18:12 +0000
      Re: the language Rosario193 <Rosario@invalid.invalid> - 2014-12-18 23:15 +0100
        Re: the language Rosario193 <Rosario@invalid.invalid> - 2014-12-18 23:50 +0100
    Re: the language "ocq (an evil corporate man)" <ocq@maili.ng> - 2014-12-19 02:34 +0100

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