Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows

From	David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups	comp.arch.embedded
Subject	Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows
Date	2014-10-22 23:09 +0200
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<m296dl$uc$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(7 earlier) <m27rng$4am$1@dont-email.me> <m283df$s7t$1@dont-email.me> <m287d3$9jg$1@dont-email.me> <m28b18$mq4$1@dont-email.me> <m28er3$4ml$1@dont-email.me>

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On 22/10/14 16:26, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
> On 22.10.2014 г. 16:21, David Brown wrote:
>> On 22/10/14 14:19, Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
>>> On 22.10.2014 г. 14:11, David Brown wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> 2. The user is not exposed to the bitstreams the OS stores but to to
>>>>> text which consists of characters which are part of an alphabet,
>>>>> for example the Latin alphabet as used in English has 26 characters.
>>>>
>>>> In other words, Windows mangles the names it is given.
>>>
>>> No. It reproduces the names exactly as the user has entered them.
>>>
>>
>> Don entered filenames,  ...
>
> No, he wrote a program to squeeze these names through the system.
> A user cannot enter names the system does not allow to be entered.

He typed "touch C*c".  "touch" is an extremely common command on all 
posix systems, including the various versions of MS's "unix services for 
windows" throughout the history of Windows NT.

So no, Don did not "write a program" or "hack the system" - he used a 
standard command line utility available to users.

>
>> Do you mean that because "a*b" has a non-letter, it is not a valid name?
>
> It might be, "*" is typically a reserved symbol for communication
> between the user interface and the directory search code.
> If the user interface won't let you do it chances are it is illegal.

The point is that /some/ interfaces on Windows let you use this symbol 
(and other symbols, and filenames differing only in case), while other 
interfaces disallow entering such filenames, and mangle the view of such 
files.

This is all using programs and utilities that come out of the box with 
Windows (at least the server and "ultimate" versions).

> If you don't know the answer to that try to copy an existing file
> named say abc.txt to a*a, see what the error message will be.
> (Sorry to the rest of the group, obviously everyone knows the answers
> to that but it is not my fault we go there - and at the moment I
> don't feel like letting it go just because someone is too pushy
> with his nonsense).
>
>>   Or do you mean that Don doesn't count as a "user" because he is using
>> filenames that you don't like?
>
> Or do you mean that you would be wrongly labelled mental just because
> you want to have the name written on your identity card to consist
> only of hieroglyphs and special characters.

There are plenty of languages which are written in "hieroglyphs" or have 
special characters as part of their written form.  I'm lucky - my name 
uses only characters from the 7-bit ASCII character set.  But other 
people could certainly want their names written in non-ASCII characters.

>
> Don is a "user" as long as he uses the user interface. A programmer
> and a user are not the same thing in that contest and please do not
> go into more bollocks on obvious definitions like that.

See above for a note on the "touch" user program.

>
>>>>> Of course he can hack his way into doing it, whether through some
>>>>> MS written hack which you say is not a hack or otherwise.
>>>>
>>>> The Win32 API allows files to be created or opened using "posix
>>>> semantics" for filenames, including case-sensitive files, characters
>>>> such as ":" and "*" in filenames, and multiple files differing only in
>>>> the case of their names.  Even if you want to call the MS-supplied
>>>> posix
>>>> compatibility layer a "hack", I don't think the standard Win32 API is a
>>>> hack.
>>>
>>> You may think whatever you want but using a low enough level call to
>>> create invalid directory entries is a hack, whoever may have written
>>> the code within the system call.
>>> Non-hack application code does not go that low in order to defeat the
>>> system-wide rules or compromise the system in other ways, there are
>>> always plenty of opportunities to kill a system.
>>
>> We are talking about the Win32 API "CreateFile" call here!  This is how
>> you create files in Windows programming.  If that is a "hack", then
>> /all/ windows programming is a "hack".
>
> While I don't know how this is done under windows I think you know that
> even less than I do. Your above means claim that every application
> written for windows has to prepare the name such that it will be a
> valid one.
> It is obvious that normal windows applications do not write their own
> name validations, if some call allows writing an invalid name then
> reading the OS manual will tell you that you must use another call
> prior to it which validates the name.

Most programs would simply pass on the filename to the Win32 API 
(CreateFile, which by MS logic is also used to open existing files), and 
if the function returns an error about an invalid filename, that will be 
passed on to the user.  Programs would normally only do their own 
validation if they had reason to be extra fussy.

Note that the Win32 API supports two different semantics for file name 
validity, which you can choose - you can use "posix semantics", allowing 
case sensitive operation (and some extra characters), or "default 
windows semantics" with case insensitive operation.  Either way, the 
function will check the validity of the operation requested.

> You should demonstrate at least such basic programming knowledge
> if you want people to take your posts as something more than standard
> "always know better" babble by someone who does not really know what
> he is talking about.

Let me demonstrate my basic programming knowledge by my ability to look 
up CreateFile with google to find the MSDN page:

<http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa363858%28v=vs.85%29.aspx>

Looking up the documentation for the "touch" program, to see that it is 
a common user program and not a "hack" or a special program written by 
Don, is left as an exercise to the reader.

>
>>>
>>>>> The problem remains and will remain, as unix does
>>>>> not output names but file identifiers (names consist of text, remember
>>>>> the alphabet and the character count). The fact that these identifiers
>>>>> have been misused as text for decades does not mean much beyond
>>>>> the expectations of hardcore unix users that the English alphabet
>>>>> will suddenly begin to have 52 characters.
>>>>
>>>> This goes back to your unique idea that files have a sort of colloquial
>>>> human-friendly nick-name that is a different concept from their
>>>> "filename" that everyone else uses.
>>>
>>> Blimey, so it is my unique idea that file names are meant also for human
>>> consumption/processing.
>>
>> No, it is your unique idea that an OS has to treat filenames using human
>> language rules because they are always for human processing and
>> consumption -
>
> Ah, now you are trying to cheat your way out of the hole. No, I never
> said that. I said that file names are ALSO for human consumption.

And it has been pointed out that humans use wildly different rules for 
how they write according to their language, alphabet (or non-alphabetic 
writing system), and even their personal habits - thus the OS should not 
try to second-guess them.

>
> Try to spell over the phone a file name like "ThIs Is An eXamPle Of A
> nAMe foR iDioTs".
> Then come and repeat your claim that file names - or whatever names
> which are represented in text - are to be compared case sensitive.

Filenames that are meant to be typed by humans (or read over the phone) 
should be chosen to make sense - but most humans will do that 
automatically.  And there is /no/ requirement to be case insensitive for 
that - /I/ certainly have no problem saying "readme dot txt, all small 
letters" or "readme dot txt, with a capital r".

No case-insensitive system is going to protect someone from a file name 
like "This is an exampel of a name for idiots".

Case-insensitivity made sense when there were computers with 6-bit 
characters.  And it is at least consistent when you are limited to 8.3 
capital letters purely from the 7-bit ASCII set.  (And it can still make 
sense on small, niche OS'es where you need a simple and limited system.) 
  But on a modern multi-lingual general-purpose OS and filesystem?  At 
best you get an inordinately complex, inconsistent system that works for 
some languages and not others - that's Window's solution.

>
> Or simply stop posting nonsense.
>
> Dimiter
>

Thread

Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-10 00:31 -0700
  Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-10-10 09:06 +0000
    Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-10 13:32 +0200
      Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-10 07:23 -0700
        Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-10 07:26 -0700
          Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-10 19:17 +0300
            Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-10 19:12 +0200
              Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-10 20:34 +0300
              Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-10 11:32 -0700
            Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-10 10:53 -0700
              Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-10 21:24 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-10 13:36 -0700
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-11 00:18 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-10 15:28 -0700
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Tonton Th <tTh@nowhere.invalid> - 2014-10-12 20:07 +0000
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-12 19:52 -0700
              Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2014-10-10 21:15 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-10 23:04 +0300
            Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2014-10-11 11:28 +0200
              Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-11 17:13 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-11 17:26 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-11 18:51 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2014-10-12 12:04 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-12 15:59 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-12 08:04 -0700
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-12 18:47 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-12 09:01 -0700
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-12 09:05 -0700
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-12 19:17 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2014-10-13 19:26 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-13 22:00 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-14 10:25 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-14 13:28 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-14 14:37 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-14 16:00 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-14 06:19 -0700
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2014-10-15 19:57 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-16 00:06 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2014-10-16 18:16 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-16 20:49 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2014-10-14 18:59 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-14 21:39 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-14 23:29 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-15 00:46 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-15 01:38 +0200
        Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-10 17:31 +0200
          Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-10 10:34 -0700
    Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-10 06:59 -0700
  Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2014-10-10 18:42 +0200
    Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-10-10 19:00 +0000
    Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-10 13:43 -0700
      Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows upsidedown@downunder.com - 2014-10-11 11:06 +0300
        Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-11 01:35 -0700
        Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-11 17:24 +0300
        Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-11 17:43 +0200
          Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2014-10-12 12:07 +0200
            Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-12 23:41 +0200
              Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2014-10-13 19:14 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-13 20:18 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Mel Wilson <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2014-10-15 18:43 +0000
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-15 21:58 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2014-10-15 23:55 -0400
    Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-20 09:45 -0700
      Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2014-10-21 18:47 +0200
        Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-21 15:38 -0700
          Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-21 17:51 -0700
          Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2014-10-22 01:35 -0400
            Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-21 23:22 -0700
              Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2014-10-22 18:39 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-22 11:34 -0700
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows upsidedown@downunder.com - 2014-10-22 22:11 +0300
            Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-10-23 00:20 +0000
              Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2014-10-23 01:36 -0400
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-10-23 09:08 +0000
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2014-10-23 14:50 -0400
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2014-10-23 21:42 +0200
      Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-22 01:21 +0300
        Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-21 15:51 -0700
          Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-10-21 23:27 +0000
            Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-21 16:50 -0700
            Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2014-10-22 21:00 +0200
              Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows upsidedown@downunder.com - 2014-10-22 22:54 +0300
          Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-22 02:32 +0300
            Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-21 17:21 -0700
              Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-22 03:52 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-21 21:13 -0700
            Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-22 08:10 +0200
              Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-22 12:00 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-22 13:11 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-22 15:19 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-22 15:21 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-22 17:26 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2014-10-22 18:46 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-23 02:37 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-22 23:09 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-23 03:06 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-23 10:18 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-23 13:56 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-23 15:59 +0200

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