Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows

From	Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de>
Newsgroups	comp.arch.embedded
Subject	Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows
Date	2014-10-14 18:59 +0200
Message-ID	<m1jrrd.1sg.1@stefan.msgid.phost.de> (permalink)
References	(9 earlier) <m1bjlt$1br$1@dont-email.me> <m1dqoe.1q0.1@stefan.msgid.phost.de> <m1dtv8$7rj$1@dont-email.me> <m1h90f.ak.1@stefan.msgid.phost.de> <m1h7gh$984$1@dont-email.me>

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Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
> On 13.10.2014 г. 20:26, Stefan Reuther wrote:
>>>> Dimiter_Popoff wrote:
>>>>> It has worked for a few milennia, whether you like it or not. Just
>>>>> because a few programmers do not want to be bothered (or are incapable
>>>>> of) handling the naming conventions we have is no good reason to ask
>>>>> for a change.
>>>>
>>>> In previous millenia, people did not try to build systems that work
>>>> internationally.
>>>
>>> Yeah. And because they do now all the whining unix followers would
>>> have the millennia old grammar reinvented just to suit the fact they
>>> have been led by their leader into the wrong corner.
>>> The fact is they got what they deserved (as does anybody following
>>> any leader). Tons of defunct software because of a fundamentally
>>> broken filesystem.
>>
>> Last time I looked, Unix software worked fine.
> 
> Not really, the relevant part has never worked and still does not work.
> See my example in a previous post how may versions of say
> "index.htm" Index.htm INDEX.HTM you need.

I see a file "index.htm", I open a file "index.htm". Works fine for me.

>> As we have learned, defining semantics for "just ignore case" is hard
>> (if you're in Russia, what reason do you have to prefer the I<>i case
>> pair over the I<>ı case pair?).
> 
> 
> How you treat cases when you record a string (be it a filename or not)
> is up to the application writing the name - or just the user typing it
> in. Once it is recorded along with the case information you no longer need
> to know in which language it is or which alphabet this is, for that.
> Just the character set - which may cover a lot of alphabets and their
> variations (check upthread my way of doing it in dps, I explained it).

I have shown you examples why this cannot work without information about
the locale (the "i<>I" case, which caused real trouble in PHP).

Of course you can record a language along with the file name. Or you can
store the file name in a normalized format. Or implement some fuzziness,
like "if they ask for INDEX.HTML, I'll give them index.html if there is
no ındex.html". But why? Think of all the software breakage you could
cause by creating an ındex.html! (Much like the software breakage you
can cause by making a c:\program.exe.)

> Filenames which are for human processing consist of characters, not of
> bytes.

IBTD. File names are for processing by programs. It is true that many
file names are processed by programs on behalf of humans, but I wouldn't
even claim the majority of files are created directly on behalf of a
user (when every web page access generates a dozen temporary files).

But it's the responsibility of the program to deal with case
conversions. And, actually, programs do that just fine. When I type a
file name, typical GUI file requesters immediately offer possible
completions, or move the cursor in the file list; of course they handle
case differences here.

> What I see is that you do not want to accept obvious facts, like
> what is a byte and what is a character, what is a character
> string and what is a sentence with meaning.(I assume you do know these?)

Of course I know what the difference between a byte and a character is.
The simplest summary: byte = kernel thing, character = user thing
(because the user can configure the mapping between bytes and
characters. LC_CTYPE in unix, 'chcp' in Windows). A file system is a
kernel thing.

  Stefan

Thread

Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-10 00:31 -0700
  Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-10-10 09:06 +0000
    Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-10 13:32 +0200
      Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-10 07:23 -0700
        Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-10 07:26 -0700
          Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-10 19:17 +0300
            Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-10 19:12 +0200
              Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-10 20:34 +0300
              Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-10 11:32 -0700
            Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-10 10:53 -0700
              Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-10 21:24 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-10 13:36 -0700
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-11 00:18 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-10 15:28 -0700
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Tonton Th <tTh@nowhere.invalid> - 2014-10-12 20:07 +0000
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-12 19:52 -0700
              Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2014-10-10 21:15 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-10 23:04 +0300
            Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2014-10-11 11:28 +0200
              Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-11 17:13 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-11 17:26 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-11 18:51 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2014-10-12 12:04 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-12 15:59 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-12 08:04 -0700
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-12 18:47 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-12 09:01 -0700
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-12 09:05 -0700
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-12 19:17 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2014-10-13 19:26 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-13 22:00 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-14 10:25 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-14 13:28 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-14 14:37 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-14 16:00 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-14 06:19 -0700
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2014-10-15 19:57 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-16 00:06 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2014-10-16 18:16 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-16 20:49 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2014-10-14 18:59 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-14 21:39 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-14 23:29 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-15 00:46 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-15 01:38 +0200
        Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-10 17:31 +0200
          Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-10 10:34 -0700
    Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-10 06:59 -0700
  Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2014-10-10 18:42 +0200
    Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-10-10 19:00 +0000
    Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-10 13:43 -0700
      Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows upsidedown@downunder.com - 2014-10-11 11:06 +0300
        Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-11 01:35 -0700
        Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-11 17:24 +0300
        Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-11 17:43 +0200
          Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2014-10-12 12:07 +0200
            Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-12 23:41 +0200
              Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2014-10-13 19:14 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-13 20:18 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Mel Wilson <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2014-10-15 18:43 +0000
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-15 21:58 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2014-10-15 23:55 -0400
    Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-20 09:45 -0700
      Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2014-10-21 18:47 +0200
        Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-21 15:38 -0700
          Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-21 17:51 -0700
          Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2014-10-22 01:35 -0400
            Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-21 23:22 -0700
              Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2014-10-22 18:39 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-22 11:34 -0700
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows upsidedown@downunder.com - 2014-10-22 22:11 +0300
            Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-10-23 00:20 +0000
              Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2014-10-23 01:36 -0400
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-10-23 09:08 +0000
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2014-10-23 14:50 -0400
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2014-10-23 21:42 +0200
      Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-22 01:21 +0300
        Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-21 15:51 -0700
          Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2014-10-21 23:27 +0000
            Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-21 16:50 -0700
            Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2014-10-22 21:00 +0200
              Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows upsidedown@downunder.com - 2014-10-22 22:54 +0300
          Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-22 02:32 +0300
            Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-21 17:21 -0700
              Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-22 03:52 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2014-10-21 21:13 -0700
            Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-22 08:10 +0200
              Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-22 12:00 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-22 13:11 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-22 15:19 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-22 15:21 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-22 17:26 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2014-10-22 18:46 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-23 02:37 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-22 23:09 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-23 03:06 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-23 10:18 +0200
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com> - 2014-10-23 13:56 +0300
                Re: Filesystem syntax constraints under Windows David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2014-10-23 15:59 +0200

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