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Groups > comp.sys.mac.apps > #18977

Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks).

From Todd Allcock <elecconnec@AnoOspamL.com>
Newsgroups comp.sys.mac.apps, comp.sys.mac.comm, comp.sys.mac.system, misc.phone.mobile.iphone
Subject Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks).
Date 2013-10-29 12:59 -0600
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <l4p0j5$372$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References <IpWdnXveL4Be0PDPnZ2dnUVZ_uadnZ2d@earthlink.com> <l4m2rr$ch8$1@dont-email.me> <l4m649$19l$1@news.sap-ag.de> <l4mai2$t94$1@dont-email.me> <l4o1o3$5e3$1@news.sap-ag.de>

Cross-posted to 4 groups.

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At 29 Oct 2013 11:13:23 +0100 Michael Eyd wrote:
> Am 28.10.2013 19:31, schrieb Todd Allcock:
> > At 28 Oct 2013 18:15:52 +0100 Michael Eyd wrote:
> >> Am 28.10.2013 17:20, schrieb Todd Allcock:

> >
> > Fair enough, but as I said, there are plenty of "private cloud"
options,
> > that allow you to sync your devices wirelessly with each other
without a
> > cloud intermediary.  I suspect a smart guy or gal will quickly take
> > advantage of this news to develop (or repackage a few open source
tools,
> > to create) a simple solution for OS X users (much like how a small
dev @
> > Akruto.com seems to be making a decent living peddling his $25
cloudless
> > Outlook-to-Winodws/Android phone faux-Exchange server software to
cloud-
> > phobic Windows users.  There's no reason it wouldn't work on iPhones
as
> > well, if/when Apple drops USB PIM sync support from iTunes, since iOS
> > supports Exchange.)
> 
> Nevertheless, all these technologies still require (at least as of
> today) a decent amount of knowledge how to set them up, and how to set
> up the mobile devices, plus possibly (if you want to be able to access
> them from everywhere) how to set up your router, have a PC run 24/7, ...


Sounds like we'd need a Venn diagram showing the intersection of those
who actually care enough to keep their data out of Apple's (or Google's,
or MS') hands (IMO, already a small number- probably a single digit
percentage) with those incapable of setting up a server app easily (a
large number, I'll wager, but one that doesn't intersect the first much,
IMO.)  

We're living in a world where most people can't shut the hell up about
their lives on Facebook, and lets FB, Twitter, Instagram and Foursquare
track their every move, and yet you expect these same folks to care if
Apple holds a copy of their calendar for them?  (Lord knows how many of
us are already letting Google do it!)



As far as "24/7", is your PC running 24/7 now to save you time when you
want to USB sync?  Just like with USB sync, any changes on any device
happily sit there waiting for the next connection.  You could even set it
up to sync manually.  The only difference would be the lack of a wire.


 
> That's all not (yet?) really dummy proof - while the USB sync is (mostly,

> at least)... :-/

True, but nature, and the app store, abhors a vacuum...  As I said, some
clever person will package up a solution all wrapped in a step-by-step
wizard, if only to cash in on the "sky is falling" panic this is already
kicking up on some forums.  That Akruto-sync guy scored all kinds of free
publicity on Microsoft's official forums as a potential solution for the
cloud-adverse.  The first guy who tosses out a simple to set-up solution
for this will get similar accolades on any forum kvetching about this.


> > The USB methodology was a reasonable one when we all had one or two
PCs
> > and a Palm Pilot (anyone besides me remember the days of using your
Palm
> > or Pocket PC to keep the contacts and calendar on your desktop and
laptop
> > PCs in sync?),
> 
> Actually, I only left this world (after more than ten years) about
> three years ago... ;-)

There you go.  Long past time to drag you kicking and screaming into the
21st century...  Come on in, lose all of your privacy.  The water's fine!
 ;) 

 

> > I don't think either MS or Apple are/were up to anything nefarious
(e.g.
> > "forcing us to the cloud") by dropping USB support- they both likely
just
> > hit a wall in their development cycles where they deemed the cost of
> > continuing such support was no longer practical given the robust and
> > popular alternatives they and others offer.
> 
> Which costs? The technology was there anyway, and it was (is) working
> just fine. It is probably even more expensive to take it out than to
> just keep it in the system - considering the (expected) number of
> support calls to Apple 'I can't sync my iPhone anymore! Help!'...


Exactly- Apple doesn't generally cause themselves pain for no reason. If
I had to guess, something about Mavericks broke the existing sync service
code, and ditching it was deemed a better use of resourses than solving
the issue.  Or it might have just been a deadline thing. (Again, to draw
parallels to MS, the Windows Mobile USB sync software back in the day
turned out to be completely incompatible with Vista, and the *beta* for
its replacement wasn't ready for nearly a month *after* the Vista launch.
 Windows Mobile users were simply told to either use Exchange (the only
wireless sync method at the time) or continue using Win XP until the beta
software for Vista was released!  

Heck, we could even theorize that Apple's decision *was* based on a
missed deadline, and Apple is monitioring the reaction to the iCloud-only
"solution" to determine how much effort to put into solving it, or
whether to bother at all- again, none of their competition seems to care
about this "problem", happily letting third-parties solve it, and I
assume you'll agree Apple's success with iOS isn't dependent on a mob of
angry USB synchers adopting iOS solely because it's the last platform to
support USB sync natively.



> 
> > With MS, it was their new
> > Windows Phone OS- the old Windows Mobile OS had USB sync, but the new
> > (and incompatible) OS was incompatible with the existing USB sync
software.
> > Since the new OS had media playing software loosely based on the
failed
> > Zune media player, they opted to follow the path of least resistance
(and
> > resources) use the existing Zune desktop sync software to sync media
with
> > Windows Phones, but because the Zune software (unlike iTunes) didn't
> > support PIM sync, MS declared wireless Exchange Activesync (which
already
> > existed, and the phone needed to support anyway) would be the sole PIM
> > sync method, requiring no new sync software to be written.
> 
> There the situation certainly was different.

Perhaps, perhaps not- none of us know what Apple has up there sleeves. 
This might just be the beginning of a move to get rid of legacy
connectivity options to support next-gen products.  Maybe the iPhone 6
(or a variant of it) wants to one-up the new spillproof/"whateverproof" 
Samsung Galaxies- picture a completely sealed iPhone, with no ports at
all: wireless inductive charging, bluetooth headphones, and iCloudPIM
sync and WiFi-only iTunes media sync... A phone completely submersible,
at home in any hostile environment.


 
> > As incompetent as most here probably think MS is, they didn't make the
> > decision lightly- they had data from their prior mobile efforts
guiding
> > them, which told them far fewer than 50% of Windows Mobile users had
> > *ever* plugged their phone into a PC to sync *anything*
> 
> Question is whether these numbers included as well e.g. all the GPS
> systems running on WinMob - if I don't want new maps, why should I
> connect it to a PC anyway?


That was phones only- no GPS units or PDAs. (Technically, GPS units never
ran on WinMo, but the WinCE operating system WinMo was built on.  A
subtle difference, but "WinMo" ran on top of CE, much like Windows 3.1
ran on top of MS-DOS, to use a strained analogy.)  I'm not even sure I'm
allowed to share that stat, but I'm fairly certain the statute of
limitations eventually runs out on NDAs involving obsolete products. (I
was a Microsoft "Most Valuable Professional" in the mobile device
category from 2007 through 2011.  That stat was given to us back in 2009
or so, to explain why MS was going to leverage the cloud for device
backup instead of the PC, in the never finished or released Windows
Mobile 7.  (In a bizarre story illustrating just how stupid and wasteful
large corporations and their politics can be, Windows Phone 7 was
developed in parallel to WinMo 7 by a different team, and when MS was
satisfied with the direction WP7 was heading, the plug was pulled on
WinMo before the nearly complete WM7 was finished, scrapping everything
done to date! Ironically, WP7 had the crappiest backup methodology of any
mobile OS ever- it made an on-PC backup only when an OS upgrade was being
performed, to transfer the data back to the device after the upgrade. 
There was no way to manually trigger a backup, or manually force a
restore any time after the update.)   

  

> > (and this was at
> > a time when MS offered no free comprehensive wireless sync options-
> > Exchange sync required an Exchange server or a monthly subscription
for
> > Exchange hosting.) So, prior to the launch of the new Windows Phone OS,

> > MS added Exchange Activesync support to their free Live/Hotmail
accounts
> > allowing free wireless PIM sync with Outlook (using a Microsoft cloud
> > account as an intermediary) to any EAS-compatible device (Windows
Phone,
> > Android, iOS, Symbian, etc.), rendering USB sync, in their opinion, if
> > not unnecessary, at least an edge-case scenario.
> 
> MS has not always been really lucky with such decisions... ;-)

Perhaps not, but again, Google has done pretty well with Android and it
never had a USB connection methodolgy, because Google isn't in the
computer business.  The business model is based around the Google cloud. 
If a billion people are willing to entruse their data to Google,
certainly they can trust Apple. 


> 
> > Fast forward to 2013, when Apple is releasing a new desktop OS, and,
> > well, we all know what Apple thinks of "edge cases"...  ;) I'm sure
some
> > one at Apple looked at the cost of building iOS/Mac PIM sync services
> > into 10.9
> 
> Again: Which costs? It's not like 10.9 was a completely rewritten OS,
> there are tweaks here and there, but I estimate that over 90% of the
> code did not change at all. So which costs are you talking about?

Again, just a guess, but I'll wager something broke, or the testing and
updating the sync services code was prioritized so far down the list it
fell off the end.  Even the less than 10% of an entire computer OS you
surmise has changed is still a lot of code and a lot of man-hours.
Windows Vista to Windows 7 wasn't a huge change either (many claim 7 was
really a "dot" release of Vista, but MS renamed it both to sell updates
rather than give it away to existing Vista owners, as well as distance it
from the tainted Vista name) and lots of software developed minor issues
requiring patching.  Again, I don't see Apple dropping USB support just
to force increased adoption of iCloud- something else was at play.       

> > and said "F--k it! Let them eat iCloud! Android never had USB
> > sync, and Microsoft, the poster child for legacy support and backwards
> > compatibility, stopped supporting USB sync three years ago!"
> >
> > Ironically, Apple, the first company to drop "legacy" floopy disks and
> > optical drives from their products is actually the last company to
> > support turn-of-the-century Palm Pilot sync technology (which also
wreaks
> > havoc with less savvy users that turn on both wired and iCloud sync
and
> > get to slog through the duplicate data that often creates.) So, while
I
> > certainly sympathise with those who wish to keep their data under
their
> > exclusive control, they are now a minority
> 
> Questionable - though they certainly hardly make the headlines...


Ask yourself, if the cloud-phobic are the majority, just who are the
bazillion users of Gmail Contacts/Google Calendar and Google Docs/Drive,
Microsoft Hotmail/Live/Outlook contacts and calendars and SkyDrive,
Dropbox, Sugarsync, Box, Copy.com, iCloud, etc. That's a lot of
competition for a niche market! 


> > who will have to expend a
> > little more effort to continue (e.g. setting up a local
server/"private
> > cloud") maintaining that level of security. (And, perhaps, actually
end
> > up better off after all, with the conveniences and benefits of cloud
sync
> > without the privacy sacrifices.)
> 
> The problem is the effort needed to do so (and the knowledge needed for
it)... :-(

You could always Google for the info, unless you're afraid the search
query will be stored in your permanent file...  ;)

> 
> > If Akruto Sync or Companion Link for
> > Outlook/Windows filling the void in the Windows Phone/Android
ecosystems
> > is any indication, this might help bolster the market for easy-to-use
> > "private cloud" apps for home computers that might convince more
folks to
> > re-examine their blind faith in the cloud products from Apple, MS, and
> > Google and at least taking a second look at the
risks/rewards/benefits of
> > cloud services vs. using local servers for PIM, media, etc.
> 
> The vast majority of people don't have the necessary knowledge for such
a re-examination... :-/ Sad, but true.

...or they just don't care.  Personally, I like the convenience.  Do I
think Google is mining my data?  Of course, but I have faith most of it
isn't personally identifiable, and exists to serve me ads on their pages.
 Do I think Apple or MS is selling my data to the highest bidder?  No- I
think they know the cost of a scandal would damage their business.  MS in
particular, who sells cloud services to Enterprise customers can't afford
to get caught red-handed compromising users' data.  Like a random tax-
audit, the consequences of getting caught keeps them "honest".  (NSA and
governmental requests notwithstanding- that's outside their control.) 
Personally, my PIM data is stored by MS- not a value judgement about
Apple or Google, just a simple compatibility issue (Exchange Activesync
works with more devices than iCloud or Google Calendar, and integrates
better with Outlook.)   

> 
> > Or, we might all just let the NSA know everything there is to know
about
> > us from our friends, to our favorite restaurants, to our kids' soccer
> > schedules...  ;)
> 
> Simple answer: No. :-(

Then don't upgrade OS X, or start boning up on running your own
Cal/CardDav servers.  On the bright side, if you make it simple enough,
you can be the guy that cashes in selling the easy-to-use "EydServer"
solution to everyone else.  ;)

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Thread

Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). ANTant@zimage.com (Ant) - 2013-10-26 17:02 -0500
  Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2013-10-26 20:21 -0400
    Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Juan I. Cahis <jiclbchSINBASURA@attglobal.net> - 2013-10-27 08:08 -0500
      Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> - 2013-10-27 10:10 -0400
  Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2013-10-27 14:16 +1300
    Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-10-26 21:23 -0400
  Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-10-27 02:37 +0000
  Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2013-10-26 23:09 -0400
    Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). bj <address_is@invalid.invalid> - 2013-10-27 09:31 -0500
      Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2013-10-27 11:00 -0400
  Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> - 2013-10-27 10:30 -0700
    Re: Online iCloud is required when sync(hroniz)ing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> - 2013-10-27 12:21 -0700
    Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Todd Allcock <elecconnec@AnoOspamL.com> - 2013-10-28 10:20 -0600
      Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michael Eyd <invalid@eyd.de> - 2013-10-28 18:15 +0100
        Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Todd Allcock <elecconnec@AnoOspamL.com> - 2013-10-28 12:31 -0600
          Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2013-10-28 20:44 +0000
            Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2013-10-28 18:38 -0400
              Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2013-10-29 17:01 +0000
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). bj <address_is@invalid.invalid> - 2013-10-29 12:16 -0500
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2013-10-29 18:22 +0000
            Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michael Vilain <vilain@NOspamcop.net> - 2013-10-28 15:57 -0700
            Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Todd Allcock <elecconnec@AnoOspamL.com> - 2013-10-28 20:56 -0600
              Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2013-10-28 23:57 -0400
              Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Ed Anson <EdAnson@comcast.net> - 2013-10-29 00:47 -0400
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2013-10-29 02:02 -0400
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Ed Anson <EdAnson@comcast.net> - 2013-10-29 21:38 -0400
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> - 2013-10-29 19:38 -0700
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2013-10-30 00:50 -0400
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2013-10-29 17:01 +0000
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Ed Anson <EdAnson@comcast.net> - 2013-10-29 22:21 -0400
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Kurt Ullman <kurtullman@yahoo.com> - 2013-10-30 09:09 -0400
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2013-10-31 09:05 +1100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2013-10-30 14:39 +0000
            Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). "857" <8571953@gmail.com> - 2013-10-30 06:59 +1100
              Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2013-10-30 14:39 +0000
          Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michael Eyd <invalid@eyd.de> - 2013-10-29 11:13 +0100
            Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Todd Allcock <elecconnec@AnoOspamL.com> - 2013-10-29 12:59 -0600
              Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michael Eyd <invalid@eyd.de> - 2013-10-30 09:07 +0100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2013-10-30 11:00 -0400
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michael Eyd <invalid@eyd.de> - 2013-10-30 16:22 +0100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2013-10-30 14:53 -0400
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-10-30 14:56 -0400
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Calum <com.gmail@nospam.scottishwildcat> - 2013-10-30 21:01 +0000
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> - 2013-11-02 06:53 -0700
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2013-10-31 10:28 +1100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2013-10-31 18:49 +0000
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Ant <ant@zimage.comANT> - 2013-11-02 06:53 -0700
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michael Eyd <invalid@eyd.de> - 2013-10-31 09:28 +0100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2013-10-31 09:17 -0400
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michael Eyd <invalid@eyd.de> - 2013-10-31 15:01 +0100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2013-10-31 13:35 -0400
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michael Eyd <invalid@eyd.de> - 2013-11-04 17:28 +0100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2013-10-31 18:49 +0000
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-10-31 15:36 -0400
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2013-11-02 01:46 +0000
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2013-11-01 22:20 -0400
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Beli <baiheli.pip@xs4all.nl> - 2013-11-02 08:26 +0100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2013-11-02 15:06 -0400
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@gmail.com> - 2013-11-02 13:42 +0100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2013-11-03 05:37 +1100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@gmail.com> - 2013-11-03 06:24 +0100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2013-11-03 19:32 +1100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2013-11-02 14:37 +0000
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2013-11-03 04:48 +1100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-11-01 22:45 -0400
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2013-11-02 14:37 +0000
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2013-11-02 12:12 -0400
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michael Eyd <invalid@eyd.de> - 2013-11-04 17:32 +0100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). dempson@actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) - 2013-11-05 09:13 +1300
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michael Eyd <invalid@eyd.de> - 2013-11-05 11:19 +0100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). spamfalle2@arcor.de (Marc Stibane) - 2013-11-05 18:18 +0100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2013-10-31 18:49 +0000
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Todd Allcock <elecconnec@AnoOspamL.com> - 2013-11-02 22:49 -0600
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-11-03 05:23 +0000
        Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2013-10-28 16:08 -0400
          Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michael Eyd <invalid@eyd.de> - 2013-10-29 11:00 +0100
            Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2013-10-29 06:28 -0700
              Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michael Eyd <invalid@eyd.de> - 2013-10-29 16:42 +0100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2013-10-29 08:53 -0700
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michael Eyd <invalid@eyd.de> - 2013-10-29 17:29 +0100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2013-10-29 09:41 -0700
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2013-10-30 08:33 +1100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2013-10-29 15:58 -0700
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2013-10-30 12:30 +1100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2013-10-29 23:14 -0700
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2013-10-31 03:23 +1100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2013-10-30 10:13 -0700
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2013-10-31 10:24 +1100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2013-10-30 16:32 -0700
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2013-10-31 11:22 +1100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-10-31 02:41 +0000
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2013-10-30 20:51 -0700
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2013-10-31 18:49 +0000
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2013-11-01 07:42 +1100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). George Kerby <ghost_topper@hotmail.com> - 2013-10-30 21:55 -0500
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2013-10-30 20:53 -0700
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2013-11-01 07:43 +1100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). George Kerby <ghost_topper@hotmail.com> - 2013-10-30 22:05 -0500
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2013-10-30 21:00 -0700
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Kurt Ullman <kurtullman@yahoo.com> - 2013-10-31 10:01 -0400
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2013-10-31 07:39 -0700
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2013-11-01 07:48 +1100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). George Kerby <ghost_topper@hotmail.com> - 2013-11-06 17:21 -0600
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michelle Steiner <foo@bar.com> - 2013-11-06 19:58 -0700
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). George Kerby <ghost_topper@hotmail.com> - 2013-11-07 09:32 -0600
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michelle Steiner <foo@bar.com> - 2013-11-07 22:03 -0700
                Re: (OT) Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). AV3 <arvimide@earthlink.net> - 2013-11-08 10:48 -0500
                Re: (OT) Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michelle Steiner <foo@bar.com> - 2013-11-08 21:34 -0700
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). George Kerby <ghost_topper@hotmail.com> - 2013-11-09 10:06 -0600
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michelle Steiner <foo@bar.com> - 2013-11-09 20:01 -0700
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2013-11-09 22:36 -0500
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michelle Steiner <foo@bar.com> - 2013-11-09 21:26 -0700
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> - 2013-11-11 09:58 +0000
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). "M. John Matlaw" <nouser@invalid.com> - 2013-11-10 09:49 -0500
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2013-11-01 07:38 +1100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michael Eyd <invalid@eyd.de> - 2013-10-30 16:41 +0100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2013-10-30 10:08 -0700
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2013-10-30 08:28 +1100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2013-10-30 07:44 +1100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2013-10-29 17:52 -0400
              Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2013-10-30 07:28 +1100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2013-10-29 15:54 -0700
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2013-10-30 12:28 +1100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2013-10-29 23:08 -0700
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2013-10-31 03:15 +1100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> - 2013-10-30 10:11 -0700
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2013-10-31 10:22 +1100
            Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Davoud <star@sky.net> - 2013-10-29 10:22 -0400
              Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michael Eyd <invalid@eyd.de> - 2013-10-29 16:52 +0100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2013-10-30 07:42 +1100
            Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2013-10-30 07:17 +1100
              Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michael Eyd <invalid@eyd.de> - 2013-10-30 09:24 +0100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2013-10-31 03:38 +1100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michael Eyd <invalid@eyd.de> - 2013-10-31 09:53 +0100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2013-11-01 08:34 +1100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michael Eyd <invalid@eyd.de> - 2013-11-04 17:53 +0100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2013-11-05 05:21 +1100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michael Eyd <invalid@eyd.de> - 2013-11-05 12:58 +0100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2013-11-06 05:25 +1100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Michael Eyd <invalid@eyd.de> - 2013-11-06 12:41 +0100
                Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> - 2013-11-07 04:53 +1100
  Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> - 2013-10-27 19:34 -0500
  Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). me@home.spamsucks.ca (Király) - 2013-10-28 17:07 +0000
    Re: Online iCloud is required when synchronizing contacts and calendars between iPhone and iTunes in the new Mac OS X 10.9 (Mavericks). Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> - 2013-10-28 20:44 +0000

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