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Groups > comp.arch.embedded > #12804

Re: Resource revocation

From Don Y <this@isnotme.com>
Newsgroups comp.arch.embedded, comp.realtime
Subject Re: Resource revocation
Date 2013-07-28 15:51 -0700
Organization Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID <kt47a7$505$1@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink)
References (5 earlier) <7xbo5pbzdy.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <kstb45$s25$1@speranza.aioe.org> <7xfvv1k5yh.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <b5fpouFs6qcU1@mid.dfncis.de> <nZgJt.598074$%p1.173951@en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com>

Cross-posted to 2 groups.

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Hi Richard,

On 7/28/2013 3:31 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

[attributions elided]

>>> Hard deadlines in realtime programming usually mean microseconds or so.
>>> This plant watering stuff isn't even soft realtime (where you generally
>>> want responses within milliseconds but are allowed to miss
>>> occasionally).
>>
>> This is a very common misconception, but still just as wrong.  Realtime
>> has nothing to do whatsoever with the length of any particular interval
>> of time.  It doesn't matter if your deadline is coming every 50
>> nanoseconds or once a year.  If there's a deadline, and it's defined as
>> a point fixed in time, then you're doing realtime processing.
>>
>> Nor is the distinction between soft and hard realtime to be found in the
>> timescales involved, but in the gravity of consequences if you miss a
>> deadline.
>>
>> In other words, realtime is about whether there _is_ a "too late", not
>> _when_ that might be.
>
> I use a different definition of Hard/Soft Real time. Hard Real Time is
> the domain of timing specifications that missing is considered a FAILURE
> of the system, it hasn't met specifications, and the "customer" gets to
> blame us for the problem. Of course if the input to the system aren't
> within specifications, we can push the blame back to the input.
>
> A Soft Real Time specification allows for the missing of some deadlines,
> but there is some overall level of performance that must be met, which
> is hurt by missing the deadline.

Note that the system can still meet its objectives, late (see below).
It's just that it would be "worth more" if they had been met "on time".
(i.e., perhaps COST LESS to implement)

> There may well be a LOT of value to still completing the task after the
> deadline,

If there is *any* value after the deadline, then it is not HRT.
HRT is defined as *no* value after the deadline (including possibly
"negative value")

> but at that point you are in the domain of "damage control" to
> minimize level of failure.

Note that there might not be any damage done -- even after the deadline!
It may simply reflect the fact that it will COST more to complete the
task after the deadline.

E.g., if you are picking items off a moving conveyor, picking it
*at* a certain point is preferable -- because the picking arm
idles at that location!

But, if you are late getting the item, you might still be able to
reposition the arm (via a servo) to grab the item at some point
*past* the ideal location.  It obviously costs more to do so.
(energy to move the mechanism, increased probability that you
might not be able to get the *next* item correctly, etc.)
But, until the item moves to a point beyond which the actuator
can seize it, there is still value (decreasing) to your attempts
to grab it!

> (Maybe you only maim someone instead of kill them).

While I understand the point you are trying to make by this
example, I try to avoid them because it tends to conflate "safety"
and timeliness.  People end up thinking "if someone is going to die"
then it's HRT!

E.g., smoking cessation has value regardless (?) of when it
happens.  But, obviously MORE value "early" than "late" (where
"early" and "late" are subjective terms)

> Looking at the example of the rocket burn, a late burn likely is
> considered a failure, but a late burn may let you make another
> correction to get back on course. You likely have now used more fuel
> than planned, so something in the mission will need to be changed. This
> is a lot less damaging than saying that we missed the burn so we might
> as well just scrap the whole missing and let the craft hurl into space.

The two examples, here, differ in that one is HRT and the other SRT.
If missing the deadline means there is no value to continuing to
"work on the problem", then its HRT.  The only result is hurtling into
space.

OTOH, if there is some value to continuing to work on it (because
orbital insertion despite the loss of some *other* mission feature
is better -- more valuable -- than scrapping the mission entirely),
then it is SRT.

Note that almost always there is some *hard* deadline beyond which
a solution to an SRT problem becomes moot.

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Thread

Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 12:23 -0700
  Re: Resource revocation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-25 12:51 -0700
    Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 15:00 -0700
      Re: Resource revocation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-25 19:38 -0700
        Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 22:12 -0700
          Re: Resource revocation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-25 23:37 -0700
            Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 01:13 -0700
              Re: Resource revocation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 02:48 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 04:19 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 09:46 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 10:21 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-07-26 19:30 +0100
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 11:56 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-07-26 20:08 +0100
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 13:11 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 12:31 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-27 11:08 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Rob Gaddi <rgaddi@technologyhighland.invalid> - 2013-07-29 09:16 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-29 10:22 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 11:22 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 08:56 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2013-07-26 19:25 +0200
                Re: Resource revocation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 10:51 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-07-26 19:21 +0100
                Re: Resource revocation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-26 11:50 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-07-26 19:42 +0100
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 12:43 -0700
                Does the Buddha have a real time nature? ;)  (was Resource revocation) Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-07-26 17:06 -0400
                Re: Does the Buddha have a real time nature? ;)  (was Resource revocation) Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 17:12 -0700
                Re: Does the Buddha have a real time nature? ;)  (was Resource revocation) Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-07-27 09:44 +0100
                Re: Does the Buddha have a real time nature? ;)  (was Resource revocation) Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-07-27 09:45 +0100
                Re: Does the Buddha have a real time nature? ;)  (was Resource revocation) Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 12:28 -0700
                Re: Does the Buddha have a real time nature? ;)  (was Resource revocation) Hans-Bernhard Bröker <HBBroeker@t-online.de> - 2013-07-27 14:11 +0200
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 12:40 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-07-26 21:29 +0100
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 13:52 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-07-26 22:55 +0100
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 17:22 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-07-27 10:02 +0100
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 09:29 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-07-27 18:20 +0100
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 12:48 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-07-27 22:57 +0100
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 16:18 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-07-31 16:33 -0400
                Re: Resource revocation upsidedown@downunder.com - 2013-07-27 22:53 +0300
                Re: Resource revocation Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-07-27 22:42 +0100
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 16:41 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-27 16:49 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation upsidedown@downunder.com - 2013-07-28 08:39 +0300
                Re: Resource revocation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-27 23:11 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Roberto Waltman <usenet@rwaltman.com> - 2013-07-31 16:15 -0400
                Re: Resource revocation upsidedown@downunder.com - 2013-08-01 00:13 +0300
                Re: Resource revocation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-27 15:16 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-07-27 23:05 +0100
                Re: Resource revocation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-27 15:37 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-07-27 23:38 +0100
                Re: Resource revocation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-27 16:08 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-07-28 01:16 +0100
                Re: Resource revocation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-27 18:43 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation upsidedown@downunder.com - 2013-07-28 09:01 +0300
                Re: Resource revocation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-27 15:21 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-07-27 23:07 +0100
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-26 12:00 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation stephenXXX@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2013-07-27 16:49 +0000
                Re: Resource revocation Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2013-07-28 18:31 -0400
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 15:51 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2013-07-28 20:12 -0400
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-28 18:35 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2013-07-29 00:10 -0400
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 00:23 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-29 01:05 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 12:07 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation upsidedown@downunder.com - 2013-07-30 01:11 +0300
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 15:20 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Rob Gaddi <rgaddi@technologyhighland.invalid> - 2013-07-29 15:42 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 16:41 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation upsidedown@downunder.com - 2013-07-30 08:51 +0300
                Re: Resource revocation Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-07-30 09:09 +0100
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-30 01:30 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-07-30 10:04 +0100
                Re: Resource revocation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-30 02:55 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-30 07:12 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-07-30 16:59 +0100
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-30 13:17 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-30 10:12 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-07-30 18:48 +0100
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-30 20:18 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation upsidedown@downunder.com - 2013-07-31 09:27 +0300
                Re: Resource revocation [long] Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-31 00:47 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-30 02:50 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation upsidedown@downunder.com - 2013-07-30 13:22 +0300
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-30 07:24 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-30 01:17 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-29 19:28 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation upsidedown@downunder.com - 2013-07-29 11:40 +0300
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 11:44 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2013-07-29 20:56 +0100
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 13:16 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2013-07-30 00:08 -0400
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-30 23:41 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-31 00:58 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-31 10:18 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2013-08-02 06:19 -0400
                Re: Resource revocation Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2013-08-03 02:26 -0400
                Re: Resource revocation Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2013-07-28 19:31 -0700
                Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-29 00:44 -0700
  Re: Resource revocation Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2013-07-25 22:42 -0400
    Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-25 22:12 -0700
  Re: Resource revocation "Boudewijn Dijkstra" <sp4mtr4p.boudewijn@indes.com> - 2013-07-31 13:41 +0200
    Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-31 07:51 -0700
      Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-31 08:07 -0700
        Re: Resource revocation Anders.Montonen@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid - 2013-07-31 15:55 +0000
          Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-07-31 10:18 -0700
      Re: Resource revocation "Boudewijn Dijkstra" <sp4mtr4p.boudewijn@indes.com> - 2013-08-01 14:42 +0200
        Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-01 14:34 -0700
      Re: Resource revocation upsidedown@downunder.com - 2013-08-02 09:08 +0300
        Re: Resource revocation Don Y <this@isnotme.com> - 2013-08-02 07:26 -0700

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