Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ?

From	Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ?
Date	2013-01-20 02:19 -0500
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<kdg5qf$fuk$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(11 earlier) <kdccnu$b7s$1@dont-email.me> <ln622u9clc.fsf@nuthaus.mib.org> <kdd0ii$agi$1@speranza.aioe.org> <kdd6lm$ik6$1@dont-email.me> <lna9s48prb.fsf@nuthaus.mib.org>

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On 1/19/2013 23:03, Keith Thompson wrote:
> Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> writes:
>> On 1/18/2013 21:31, glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:
>>> Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> wrote:
>>>> Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>> (snip)
>>>>> 2. Very consistently _not_ all-bits-zero, suggesting a practical use for
>>>>> a debugger to trap (as opposed to a same-sized integer/object with
>>>>> all-zeroes)
>>>
>>>> When you say it "behaves as a null pointer in C code", what exactly do
>>>> you mean by that?
>>>
>>>> Does it compare equal to NULL?  If not, then it *doesn't* behave as a
>>>> null pointer in C code.
>>>
>>> I can imagine a system that masks off some bits before comparing
>>> it to NULL. Not that I know any that actually do it.
>>
>> Yes well that's along the lines that it might be.  For example, if a
>> 'free'd pointer becomes 0x0000000C, in C terminology, it'd be an
>> "indeterminate value."
> [...]
>
> How does a free'd pointer *become* anything?
>

The value of a pointer becomes indeterminate at the end of the 
pointed-to object's lifetime.  Defect Report #260 discusses this.

Windows "Checked" builds are more easily debugged than their "Free" 
counterparts.  I don't think a freed pointer's representation changing 
is beyond the realm of either possible or useful.  But "might," above, 
means that this was just a guess, which now seems likely to be wrong, 
thanks to Mr. Philip Lantz' more obvious explanation.

However, the masking of bits that Mr. Glen Herrmannsfeldt mentioned 
still seems about right.  Here is another guess: The "null class 
pointer" that WinDbg talks about is some reasonably-sized window around 
the unsigned value 0.  Given a null pointer of all-zeroes, the 
'CONTAINING_RECORD' macro could yield, let's say, 0xFFFFFFF0.  Mr. 
Lantz' example shows the other direction.

> [...]
>
> There are a lot of strange things an implementation *could* do, but the
> topic at hand is what a particular implementation actually does.
> Storing some specific byte sequence in uninitialized objects is a great
> idea, but it doesn't have much to do with null pointers as C defines the
> term.
>

Which of these most closely resembles the pointer value 0x0000000C in 
this Windows scenario?:

   1. A trap representation for some pointer type, invoking UB when read
   2. A valid value for some pointer type; pointing to an object
   3. A null pointer; pointing to no object, invoking UB when dereferenced

If it doesn't compare equal to 'NULL', then it doesn't appear to match 
any of these.  But if we can fuzz our way from Standard theory to 
real-world practice, we might note some similarities to #3.

Perhaps interestingly, Mr. Lantz' explanation actually means the 
representation gives hints about which member of a structure was 
involved in a bug.  In Windows, many "object types" (not to be confused 
with the C notions) are C structures beginning with a common initial 
sequence.  A "bad" pointer might reveal which member of this common 
initial sequence was involved in a bug. :)  This isn't the "pointer was 
freed" guess of above, but still useful!

(By the way, I've asked in another forum about possible documentation 
for NULL_CLASS_PTR_DEREFERENCE, although I don't know if you or anyone 
else cares.)

-- 
- Shao Miller
--
"Thank you for the kind words; those are the kind of words I like to hear.

Cheerily,"  -- Richard Harter

Thread

[union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Maciej Labanowicz <m.labanowicz@gmail.com> - 2013-01-01 03:45 -0800
  Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Barry Schwarz <schwarzb@dqel.com> - 2013-01-01 17:59 -0800
    Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-02 10:18 -0800
  Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-01 21:06 -0500
    Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-02 10:45 -0800
      Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-02 19:56 -0500
        Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-03 08:28 -0500
        Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-03 15:31 -0800
          Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-03 20:55 -0500
            Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-03 21:00 -0500
              Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-04 12:56 -0500
            Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-04 12:59 -0500
            Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-06 20:00 -0800
              Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-07 00:47 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-06 23:06 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-07 04:03 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-07 08:25 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-13 10:34 -0800
                Re: Off-Topic: Irritating Posting Patterns Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 16:00 -0500
                Re: Off-Topic: Irritating Posting Patterns Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-14 12:27 -0800
              Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-07 07:41 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-12 14:52 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-13 15:19 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-14 12:04 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-14 18:52 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-16 00:01 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-16 05:43 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-16 09:01 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-16 18:32 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-16 17:32 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-16 20:57 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-17 07:55 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-17 16:47 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-18 08:41 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-18 15:53 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-18 17:38 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-19 02:31 +0000
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-18 23:15 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-19 20:03 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-20 02:19 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-20 07:57 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-20 15:25 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-20 23:58 +0000
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-20 21:30 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-21 02:53 +0000
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 00:05 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-21 16:31 +0000
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 14:07 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-21 21:05 +0000
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 17:13 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-21 16:11 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-22 04:59 +0000
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 01:05 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-22 14:53 +0000
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-22 08:38 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-21 20:53 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2013-01-22 00:58 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-22 08:40 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-22 23:32 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2013-01-23 23:21 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-24 04:53 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-25 10:49 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-22 08:25 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-22 23:41 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-21 13:32 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 17:46 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-22 07:43 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 16:07 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-22 14:15 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-22 14:31 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 21:32 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-23 17:17 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-23 19:49 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-23 18:55 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-24 11:01 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-24 14:11 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-22 17:51 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2013-01-20 16:48 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-20 21:33 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-21 09:23 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-20 17:07 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-20 22:20 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-20 22:02 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-21 07:00 +0000
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2013-01-21 08:17 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Dr Nick <nospam-4@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2013-01-21 14:13 +0000
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2013-01-21 14:12 +0000
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-21 08:20 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-21 20:41 +0000
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 12:37 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-21 12:17 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 16:33 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-21 15:50 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-21 19:45 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-22 00:18 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2013-01-22 08:01 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-18 23:02 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2013-01-19 01:28 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-19 12:08 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-21 09:27 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 12:46 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-21 20:48 +0000
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2013-01-21 18:52 -0800
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-22 04:07 +0000
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Shao Miller <sha0.miller@gmail.com> - 2013-01-21 23:15 -0500
                Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-16 10:59 -0800
  Re: [union] Pointers to inherited structs are valid ? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2013-01-02 10:34 -0800

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