Re: Debugger Recommendation

From	jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c++
Subject	Re: Debugger Recommendation
Date	2011-09-15 11:34 +0200
Organization	lccwin
Message-ID	<j4sgr9$jpu$1@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink)
References	<HKSdnd4G7YNrOcbTnZ2dnUVZ_rCdnZ2d@giganews.com> <slrnj6q714.gtj.grahn+nntp@frailea.sa.invalid> <4e71c098$0$24024$a729d347@news.telepac.pt>

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Le 15/09/11 11:08, Rui Maciel a écrit :
> Jorgen Grahn wrote:
>
>> You might want to know that many C++ users rarely or never use a
>> traditional debugger[1]. I'm one of them -- I used gdb for a while last
>> Friday, but the time before that was many years ago.
>>
>> On Unix, you need to be able to debug core dumps but when dealing with
>> running programs it's more important to know tools like
>> - the compiler
>> - valgrind
>> - strace and ltrace,
>> and knowing how to write unit tests. All of that is IMHO more
>> important than live debugging.
>
> It can be said that one of the reasons why "many C++ users" tend not to use
> a debugger in linux is that gdb doesn't work well with C++, and once we
> ignore gdb there isn't much left to consider.

Exactly.

One thing he forgets too is that there is a completely forgotten class
of developers called "maintenance programmers". Those people that earn
their life taking care of code they did not wrote could not exist if
there weren't debuggers around. You are confronted to a MASS of code
of several ten thousands or hundred thousand lines of C++ code written
by different people in different environments with different styles.

Now, if you can with a right mouse click "go to the definition" of that
dammed variable instead of wadding through hundreds of lines of grep
output in different directories and sorting for five minutes the
relevant info you will never accept a debugger like gdb.

Besides, C++ is a write only language in most cases. In complex C++
systems there is really NO WAY to know which class is the relevant
current object (the implicit this) among several dozens of possibilities
scattered in different files. I have tried to follow the resolution
algorithm in the standard, but it is quite difficult to do a topological
sort of the involved classes in your head, then picking the right
candidate. And even if you do it, chances are that you picked the
WRONG one (as the developer did that wrote that code) and the bug
you are trying to fix is repeated in your mind.

> Nonetheless, if there was a
> decent debugger that adequately supported C++ then "many C++ users" would
> use it, including for stuff where valgrind and other tools are employed.
>

Developing a reasonable debugger like MSVC's one requires a big and
dedicated team that is paid to do that. Gdb development is a proof
that free tools can only reach certain levels of complexity before
it is impossible to do them in their free time.

But the poligtics of linux require that development tools should be
free ( no money for anybody in it). The consequence is obvious for all
to see: You get what you pay for.

Debuggers are an essential tool in languages with overloaded specifiers
where beginning with a certain level of complexity is impossible to
follow and understand what the program is doing (unless you are the 
original developer) by just reading the source code.

Thread

Debugger Recommendation Joseph Hesse <joeh@gmail.com> - 2011-08-29 09:40 -0500
  Re: Debugger Recommendation Victor Bazarov <v.bazarov@comcast.invalid> - 2011-08-29 11:01 -0400
  Re: Debugger Recommendation jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-08-29 19:19 +0200
    Re: Debugger Recommendation "Waldek M." <wm@localhost.localdomain> - 2011-08-29 21:37 +0200
      Re: Debugger Recommendation Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-08-30 07:51 +1200
        Re: Debugger Recommendation jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-08-29 22:52 +0200
          Re: Debugger Recommendation Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-08-30 08:56 +1200
            Re: Debugger Recommendation jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-08-29 23:00 +0200
              Re: Debugger Recommendation Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-08-30 09:21 +1200
              Re: Debugger Recommendation Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2011-08-30 04:58 +0100
        Re: Debugger Recommendation "Waldek M." <wm@localhost.localdomain> - 2011-08-31 21:45 +0200
          [OT] Re: Debugger Recommendation Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2011-09-10 02:17 -0500
            Re: [OT] Re: Debugger Recommendation jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-09-10 10:00 +0200
              Re: [OT] Re: Debugger Recommendation Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-09-10 21:14 +1200
                Re: [OT] Re: Debugger Recommendation jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-09-10 11:26 +0200
                Re: [OT] Re: Debugger Recommendation Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-09-10 21:33 +1200
              Re: [OT] Re: Debugger Recommendation Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2011-09-10 06:32 -0500
            Re: Debugger Recommendation Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-09-10 06:59 -0700
              Re: Debugger Recommendation Paavo Helde <myfirstname@osa.pri.ee> - 2011-09-10 09:39 -0500
      Re: Debugger Recommendation jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-08-29 22:51 +0200
        Re: Debugger Recommendation "Waldek M." <wm@localhost.localdomain> - 2011-08-31 21:11 +0200
          Re: Debugger Recommendation jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-08-31 22:17 +0200
            Re: Debugger Recommendation "Waldek M." <wm@localhost.localdomain> - 2011-09-01 07:26 +0200
        Re: Debugger Recommendation dan <dan.campbell+nospam@gmail.com> - 2011-09-09 21:30 -0500
    Re: Debugger Recommendation DeMarcus <use_my_alias_here@hotmail.com> - 2011-09-22 08:57 +0200
      Re: Debugger Recommendation jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-09-22 09:16 +0200
        Re: Debugger Recommendation Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-09-22 19:46 +1200
        Re: Debugger Recommendation DeMarcus <use_my_alias_here@hotmail.com> - 2011-09-22 11:15 +0200
  Re: Debugger Recommendation Paul <pchristor@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-08-29 22:02 -0700
    Re: Debugger Recommendation jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-08-30 11:09 +0200
      Re: Debugger Recommendation Paul <pchristor@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-08-30 05:26 -0700
        Re: Debugger Recommendation Oliver Jackson <chexmofo@hotmail.com> - 2011-08-30 08:25 -0700
          Re: Debugger Recommendation Paul <pchristor@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-08-30 10:34 -0700
  Re: Debugger Recommendation Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2011-09-11 20:37 +0000
    Re: Debugger Recommendation jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-09-12 00:40 +0200
      Re: Debugger Recommendation Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2011-09-12 21:58 +0000
        Re: Debugger Recommendation jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-09-13 00:52 +0200
          Re: Debugger Recommendation Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2011-09-13 06:40 +0000
            Re: Debugger Recommendation Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-09-15 10:26 +1200
              Re: Debugger Recommendation jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-09-15 00:57 +0200
                Re: Debugger Recommendation Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-09-15 11:13 +1200
                Re: Debugger Recommendation Lynn McGuire <lmc@winsim.com> - 2011-09-14 18:16 -0500
                Re: Debugger Recommendation Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-09-15 11:36 +1200
                Re: Debugger Recommendation Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2011-09-15 06:35 +0000
                Re: Debugger Recommendation jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-09-15 09:29 +0200
                Re: Debugger Recommendation Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2011-09-15 07:46 +0000
                Re: Debugger Recommendation jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-09-15 09:58 +0200
                Re: Debugger Recommendation Juha Nieminen <nospam@thanks.invalid> - 2011-09-15 09:57 +0000
                Re: Debugger Recommendation Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> - 2011-09-15 19:30 +0900
                Re: Debugger Recommendation jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-09-15 14:28 +0200
          Re: Debugger Recommendation yatremblay@bel1lin202.(none) (Yannick Tremblay) - 2011-09-13 13:29 +0000
            Re: Debugger Recommendation Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-09-14 08:42 +1200
            Re: Debugger Recommendation Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-09-15 10:37 +0100
              Re: Debugger Recommendation Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> - 2011-09-15 19:36 +0900
              Re: Debugger Recommendation yatremblay@bel1lin202.(none) (Yannick Tremblay) - 2011-09-19 09:42 +0000
                Re: Debugger Recommendation Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2011-09-19 10:59 +0000
          Re: Debugger Recommendation Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2011-09-13 20:09 +0000
        Re: Debugger Recommendation Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-09-15 10:11 +0100
          Re: Debugger Recommendation Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2011-09-16 21:29 +0000
    Re: Debugger Recommendation Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-09-15 10:08 +0100
      Re: Debugger Recommendation Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-09-15 21:23 +1200
        Re: Debugger Recommendation jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-09-15 11:38 +0200
          Re: Debugger Recommendation Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-09-15 21:41 +1200
        Re: Debugger Recommendation Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-09-15 10:43 +0100
      Re: Debugger Recommendation jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-09-15 11:34 +0200
        Re: Debugger Recommendation Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-09-15 21:54 +1200
        Re: Debugger Recommendation Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-09-15 11:44 +0100
          Re: Debugger Recommendation jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-09-15 18:56 +0200
            Re: Debugger Recommendation yatremblay@bel1lin202.(none) (Yannick Tremblay) - 2011-09-19 09:53 +0000
              Re: Debugger Recommendation Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-09-19 22:34 +1200
                Re: Debugger Recommendation Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2011-09-19 11:13 +0000
                Re: Debugger Recommendation yatremblay@bel1lin202.(none) (Yannick Tremblay) - 2011-09-22 11:41 +0000
                Re: Debugger Recommendation Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-09-23 07:45 +1200
        Re: Debugger Recommendation Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2011-09-16 21:24 +0000
      Re: Debugger Recommendation Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> - 2011-09-15 18:55 +0900
        Re: Debugger Recommendation Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-09-15 22:03 +1200
          Re: Debugger Recommendation Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> - 2011-09-15 19:29 +0900
            Re: Debugger Recommendation Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-09-15 23:13 +1200
              Re: Debugger Recommendation Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> - 2011-09-15 20:15 +0900
                Re: Debugger Recommendation Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-09-15 23:22 +1200
        Re: Debugger Recommendation Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2011-09-15 11:52 +0100
          Re: Debugger Recommendation Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> - 2011-09-15 20:13 +0900
          Re: Debugger Recommendation Marc <marc.glisse@gmail.com> - 2011-09-15 14:19 +0000

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