Re: Typography of programs

From	Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Typography of programs
Date	2011-07-04 09:22 -0500
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<iusiat$k9f$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(5 earlier) <slrnj11utr.rek.usenet-nospam@guild.seebs.net> <chine.bleu-521F2C.18283703072011@news.eternal-september.org> <slrnj12h2t.1b6g.usenet-nospam@guild.seebs.net> <iurkvf$am4$1@dont-email.me> <slrnj12svp.33l.angel+news@pearlgates.net>

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On 04-Jul-11 03:04, Angel wrote:
> On 2011-07-04, Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> wrote:
>> The problems I've noticed to date have _all_ been due to either
>> inconsistent encoding (eg. UTF-8 in a page declared as windows-1252 or
>> vice versa) or the complete lack of a charset declaration.  In such
>> cases, GIGO applies; that is not the fault of the browser.
> 
> While I don't have an example at hand, I've seen many a site display
> characters differently depending on whether it is viewed in IE or
> Firefox, even on the same machine.

That's why I asked for examples.  I've seen that, and similar problems,
numerous times but in _every_ case I've examined to date, the issue was
that the page lacked charset declaration; in such cases, browsers use
heuristics to determine the charset, but each browser is different, so
results vary.

> Same thing with M$ Word and OpenOffice, character sets differ even when
> viewing the same document.

I've never had that problem.  Again, can you provide an example?

> Even in simple text editors that should be utf8-capable things
> sometimes go horribly wrong.

I haven't had a problem with Unicode in text editors since MS Notepad
started inserting a BOM at the start of files.  Prior to that, I had
numerous instances where it would incorrectly load or save files as
UTF-16 (or maybe it was UCS-2 at the time) despite being explicitly told
to use UTF-8.

> I'm all for using an appropriate character set for documents, but I feel
> that a program's source should not depend on such fickle things as
> character sets and locales.

Even C has the concept of a character set for sources, presumably to
allow writing programs in ASCII, EBCDIC, etc.  I've never tried, but I'm
pretty sure I wouldn't be able to read/edit/compile programs written in
EBCDIC without significant extra work--probably more than what would be
required to handle M. Navia's proposed change.

S

-- 
Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking

Thread

Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-06-30 02:06 +0200
  Re: Typography of programs Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-29 19:57 -0500
    Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-06-30 07:19 +0200
      Re: Typography of programs Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-30 01:08 -0500
        Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-06-30 08:16 +0200
          Re: Typography of programs Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-30 01:56 -0500
            Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-06-30 09:06 +0200
              Re: Typography of programs Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-30 02:25 -0500
                Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-06-30 10:21 +0200
  Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-29 21:43 -0700
    Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-06-30 07:21 +0200
      Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-29 22:49 -0700
  Re: Typography of programs Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-06-30 16:59 +1200
    Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-06-30 07:23 +0200
      Re: Typography of programs Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-06-30 17:25 +1200
        Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-29 22:52 -0700
          Re: Typography of programs Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-06-30 17:53 +1200
            Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-29 22:58 -0700
              Re: Typography of programs Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-06-30 21:11 +1200
                Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-06-30 11:17 +0200
                Re: Typography of programs Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-06-30 12:19 +0000
                Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-06-30 17:30 +0200
                Re: Typography of programs Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-06-30 15:40 +0000
                Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-30 12:02 -0700
                Re: Typography of programs Ralf Damaschke <rwspam@gmx.de> - 2011-06-30 20:13 +0000
                Re: Typography of programs "Herbert Rosenau" <os2guy@pc-rosenau.de> - 2011-07-02 22:21 +0000
                Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-03 01:22 +0200
                Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-30 11:43 -0700
      Re: Typography of programs Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-06-30 08:20 +0000
      Re: Typography of programs Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2011-06-30 17:13 +0100
      Re: Typography of programs "Herbert Rosenau" <os2guy@pc-rosenau.de> - 2011-07-01 08:52 +0000
        Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-01 10:58 +0200
          Re: Typography of programs Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-07-01 09:27 +0000
            Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-01 12:04 +0200
              Re: Typography of programs Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-07-01 12:42 +0000
        Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-01 02:05 -0700
    Re: Typography of programs "Wolfgang.Draxinger" <Wolfgang.Draxinger@physik.uni-muenchen.de> - 2011-07-01 18:10 +0200
      Re: Typography of programs Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2011-07-01 09:21 -0700
        Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-01 14:36 -0700
          Re: Typography of programs Joe Wright <joewwright@comcast.net> - 2011-07-01 19:29 -0400
            Re: Typography of programs Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net> - 2011-07-02 11:22 -0700
          Re: Typography of programs cri@tiac.net (Richard Harter) - 2011-07-01 23:59 +0000
  Re: Typography of programs Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2011-06-30 07:48 +0000
    Re: Typography of programs "Joachim Schmitz" <nospam.jojo@schmitz-digital.de> - 2011-06-30 10:03 +0200
    Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-06-30 10:32 +0200
    Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-30 01:34 -0700
      Re: Typography of programs Chris H <chris@phaedsys.org> - 2011-06-30 11:06 +0100
        Re: Typography of programs Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net> - 2011-06-30 16:05 -0700
      Re: Typography of programs Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-06-30 14:52 +0000
        Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-30 11:39 -0700
          Re: Typography of programs Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-06-30 20:55 +0000
            Re: Typography of programs "Herbert Rosenau" <os2guy@pc-rosenau.de> - 2011-07-02 22:21 +0000
  Re: Typography of programs Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2011-06-30 09:11 -0700
    Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-06-30 21:50 +0200
      Re: Typography of programs Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-01 08:26 +1200
        Re: Typography of programs "Herbert Rosenau" <os2guy@pc-rosenau.de> - 2011-07-02 22:21 +0000
      Re: Typography of programs Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2011-06-30 13:38 -0700
  Re: Typography of programs gordonb.9z4n8@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2011-07-01 23:16 -0500
    Re: Typography of programs Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2011-07-01 21:46 -0700
    Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-01 21:52 -0700
      Re: Typography of programs gordonb.e78ud@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2011-07-02 02:14 -0500
        Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-02 00:38 -0700
          Re: Typography of programs Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-07-02 15:00 -0700
          Re: Typography of programs Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-07-04 00:20 +0000
            Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-03 18:28 -0700
              Re: Typography of programs Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-07-04 04:42 +0000
                Re: Typography of programs Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2011-07-04 01:01 -0500
                Re: Typography of programs Dr Nick <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2011-07-04 08:15 +0100
                Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-04 00:40 -0700
                Re: Typography of programs gordonb.3nbmk@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2011-07-04 07:42 -0500
                Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-04 07:15 -0700
                Re: Typography of programs Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-07-05 20:21 +0000
                Re: Typography of programs Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2011-07-04 09:56 -0500
                Re: Typography of programs Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-07-05 20:21 +0000
                Re: Typography of programs Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-07-04 08:04 +0000
                Re: Typography of programs Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2011-07-04 09:22 -0500
                Re: Typography of programs Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-07-05 20:21 +0000
                Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-05 22:45 +0200
                Re: Typography of programs Willem <willem@turtle.stack.nl> - 2011-07-05 21:52 +0000
                Re: Typography of programs Squeamizh <squeamz@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-05 20:03 -0700
                Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-06 08:46 +0200
                Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-06 00:08 -0700
                Re: Typography of programs Willem <willem@turtle.stack.nl> - 2011-07-06 12:12 +0000
                Re: Typography of programs Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2011-07-06 11:10 -0500
                Re: Typography of programs Dr Nick <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2011-07-06 07:42 +0100
    Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-02 11:02 +0200
      Re: Typography of programs Dr Nick <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2011-07-02 10:22 +0100
        Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-02 13:51 +0200
          Re: Typography of programs Dr Nick <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2011-07-02 15:45 +0100
      Re: Typography of programs gordonb.piror@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2011-07-02 07:31 -0500
        Re: Typography of programs Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net> - 2011-07-03 01:47 -0700
      Re: Typography of programs Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-03 03:10 -0700
        Re: Typography of programs superpollo <superpollo@tznvy.pbz> - 2011-07-04 15:19 +0200
      Re: Typography of programs "Herbert Rosenau" <os2guy@pc-rosenau.de> - 2011-07-03 19:39 +0000
        Re: Typography of programs "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-07-03 14:01 -0700
          Re: Typography of programs Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-07-03 14:26 -0700
            Re: Typography of programs "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-07-04 01:19 -0700
              Re: Typography of programs Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-07-04 14:19 -0700
        Re: Typography of programs Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net> - 2011-07-03 20:46 -0700
          Re: Typography of programs Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-07-04 04:42 +0000
          Re: Typography of programs Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2011-07-04 00:43 -0500
            Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-03 23:03 -0700
              Re: Typography of programs James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-07-04 06:32 -0400
              Re: Typography of programs Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2011-07-04 09:08 -0500
          Re: Typography of programs Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-07-07 18:01 +0300
  Re: Typography of programs Dr Nick <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2011-07-02 16:28 +0100
  Re: Typography of programs pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry) - 2011-07-02 20:52 +0000
    Re: Typography of programs Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2011-07-04 00:50 -0500
  Re: Typography of programs "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2011-07-03 10:04 +0200
    Re: Typography of programs "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2011-07-03 10:27 +0200
  Re: Typography of programs Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-03 03:19 -0700
  Re: Typography of programs "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2011-07-06 10:14 +0100
    Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-06 02:48 -0700
      Re: Typography of programs "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2011-07-06 11:47 +0100
        Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-06 14:46 +0200
          Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-06 07:44 -0700
          Re: Typography of programs Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-07 07:50 +1200

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