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Groups > comp.lang.c > #7432

Re: Typography of programs

From jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: Typography of programs
Date 2011-07-02 11:02 +0200
Organization lccwin
Message-ID <iummqt$ets$1@speranza.aioe.org> (permalink)
References <iugem2$np3$1@speranza.aioe.org> <3JWdnRyR0PU4BpPTnZ2dnUVZ_h-dnZ2d@posted.internetamerica>

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Le 02/07/11 06:16, Gordon Burditt a écrit :
>> Unicode now offers all possible signs for displaying in our programs,
>
> How many people can visually distinguish those possible signs from
> each other?
>
>> and it would be a progress if C would standardize some codes to be
>> used isnstead of the usual != and&&, etc.
>
> Why?  What problem are you attempting to solve?

At the start of the discussion, I was trying to get a modern
and aesthetically pleasing typography for programs. Why write
!= instead of the inequality sign from mathematics? There is
no reason.

But during the discussion, I have learned a bit, and now the
proposal should be extended:

o We should be able to format commentary text as in a simple
   text editor (rtf) that would allow us to write diagrams that
   explain the code instead of ridiculous Ascii drawings that
   are extremely difficult to draw and do not pass through
   reformatters

o We should end the digraphs of C and use the inequality sign
   (in output) instead of !=, the assignment arrow instead of =,
   the boolen \/ and /\ for OR and AND instead of || and &&,
   etc.

The problem with documentation now, is that it must be written
outside the program, using a text editor that is in general
different from the programmer's editor. Obviously, as Ben said, I
could do thsi in wedit and be done with it, but actually that would be
a wrong solution since any user of this feature would be tied
to a single editor: impossible to use another since there
would be no standard way of editing programs.

> Incidentally,
> Unicode is well-known for the use of nearly-identical graphics
> characters to try to get people and web browsers to interpret URLs
> differently, and to exploit security holes.
>

Did you know that pointers are used in all exploits done so far?
Obviously we should ban pointers (and pointer+integer operations).

> It seems that the *only* standardized way to refer to a character
> is some wierd construct using a U and a bunch of numbers.
>
>> We could have in some isoXXX.h
>> #define ? !=
>> #define ? and
>> #define ? or
>> #define ?<=
>> #define ?>=
>
> 1.  Who said whatever that character is after #define (that looks
> like a question mark) is usable in an identifier?

Nobody said that. The problem with your news reader (tin) is
that is from february 2007 and kind of outdated, as you can
see now. Please get a newer version or a version that can
read/write utf8.


  I don't understand
> why you would want to use it as (part of) an identifier *and* as a
> comparison operator?
>

I never said that. Please read again. I am proposing that != is replaced
with a single Unicode character (the inequality sign of mathematics)


> 2.  How do you manage to #define the same character to five different
> strings?
>

As I said before, your news reader displays only the alternative Unicode
sin (the question mark) since it is unable to display unicode.


> 3.  How the heck do I type that character?
>


By pressing the "!" and then (after you have taken your finger away from 
the "!") the "=" key. The sophisticated software behind your
programmer's editor translates those two characters into one, in the 
same way that when you type an accentuated letter you type first
the accent, THEN the letter. OK?

>> Using ? for assignment would avoid the common beginner's error of using
>> = instead of == and programs would look less horrible.
>
> Using something that looks like a *question mark* for assignment
> would be extremely confusing.

Yes, I agree. But there was no question mark in my post. See above.

  Using something that turns into a
> *question mark* when posted to comp.lang.c would be even more
> confusing.
>

Yes.

>> All this would be done first in output only to avoid requiring a new C
>> keyboard even though that can be done later.
>
> Why should we need a C-specific keyboard?
>

Because many C programmers do not need the "Paragraph" sign for instance.
It could be replaced with the... inequality sign!

>> You would still type !=
>> but you would obtain ? in output in the same way that you type first the
>> accent, then the later under the accent and you obtain one character.
>
> The C language does not define a text editor.
>

It implicitly admits that the program text must be somehow
inputted into a computer system...

Besides, this proposal doesn't define an editor anyway. It would
propose an optional "enriched" form of programs that would replace
the digraphs of C with their Unicode equivalents and that would
reserve the sequences:

/*{\rtf
that should be followed by a matching
}*/

/*<HTML>

and
</HTML>*/
as the start of a rich text comment that should be displayed
as rich text if the text processor supports it.

> You might be right about many editors supporting UTF-8.  How many users
> know how to use those features?

I would bet that there isn't a single programmer that has never used a
word processor. I am sorry but even you have used one.



> And how many of those support UTF-8 on
> a text console?
>

BSD is not very advanced in graphics and Unicode support maybe...
Get a Mac or a PC and use your favorite editor there, using BSD only to 
run your code.

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Thread

Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-06-30 02:06 +0200
  Re: Typography of programs Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-29 19:57 -0500
    Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-06-30 07:19 +0200
      Re: Typography of programs Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-30 01:08 -0500
        Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-06-30 08:16 +0200
          Re: Typography of programs Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-30 01:56 -0500
            Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-06-30 09:06 +0200
              Re: Typography of programs Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-30 02:25 -0500
                Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-06-30 10:21 +0200
  Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-29 21:43 -0700
    Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-06-30 07:21 +0200
      Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-29 22:49 -0700
  Re: Typography of programs Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-06-30 16:59 +1200
    Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-06-30 07:23 +0200
      Re: Typography of programs Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-06-30 17:25 +1200
        Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-29 22:52 -0700
          Re: Typography of programs Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-06-30 17:53 +1200
            Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-29 22:58 -0700
              Re: Typography of programs Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-06-30 21:11 +1200
                Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-06-30 11:17 +0200
                Re: Typography of programs Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-06-30 12:19 +0000
                Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-06-30 17:30 +0200
                Re: Typography of programs Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-06-30 15:40 +0000
                Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-30 12:02 -0700
                Re: Typography of programs Ralf Damaschke <rwspam@gmx.de> - 2011-06-30 20:13 +0000
                Re: Typography of programs "Herbert Rosenau" <os2guy@pc-rosenau.de> - 2011-07-02 22:21 +0000
                Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-03 01:22 +0200
                Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-30 11:43 -0700
      Re: Typography of programs Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-06-30 08:20 +0000
      Re: Typography of programs Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2011-06-30 17:13 +0100
      Re: Typography of programs "Herbert Rosenau" <os2guy@pc-rosenau.de> - 2011-07-01 08:52 +0000
        Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-01 10:58 +0200
          Re: Typography of programs Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-07-01 09:27 +0000
            Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-01 12:04 +0200
              Re: Typography of programs Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-07-01 12:42 +0000
        Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-01 02:05 -0700
    Re: Typography of programs "Wolfgang.Draxinger" <Wolfgang.Draxinger@physik.uni-muenchen.de> - 2011-07-01 18:10 +0200
      Re: Typography of programs Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2011-07-01 09:21 -0700
        Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-01 14:36 -0700
          Re: Typography of programs Joe Wright <joewwright@comcast.net> - 2011-07-01 19:29 -0400
            Re: Typography of programs Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net> - 2011-07-02 11:22 -0700
          Re: Typography of programs cri@tiac.net (Richard Harter) - 2011-07-01 23:59 +0000
  Re: Typography of programs Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2011-06-30 07:48 +0000
    Re: Typography of programs "Joachim Schmitz" <nospam.jojo@schmitz-digital.de> - 2011-06-30 10:03 +0200
    Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-06-30 10:32 +0200
    Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-30 01:34 -0700
      Re: Typography of programs Chris H <chris@phaedsys.org> - 2011-06-30 11:06 +0100
        Re: Typography of programs Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net> - 2011-06-30 16:05 -0700
      Re: Typography of programs Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-06-30 14:52 +0000
        Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-06-30 11:39 -0700
          Re: Typography of programs Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-06-30 20:55 +0000
            Re: Typography of programs "Herbert Rosenau" <os2guy@pc-rosenau.de> - 2011-07-02 22:21 +0000
  Re: Typography of programs Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2011-06-30 09:11 -0700
    Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-06-30 21:50 +0200
      Re: Typography of programs Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-01 08:26 +1200
        Re: Typography of programs "Herbert Rosenau" <os2guy@pc-rosenau.de> - 2011-07-02 22:21 +0000
      Re: Typography of programs Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2011-06-30 13:38 -0700
  Re: Typography of programs gordonb.9z4n8@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2011-07-01 23:16 -0500
    Re: Typography of programs Ben Pfaff <blp@cs.stanford.edu> - 2011-07-01 21:46 -0700
    Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-01 21:52 -0700
      Re: Typography of programs gordonb.e78ud@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2011-07-02 02:14 -0500
        Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-02 00:38 -0700
          Re: Typography of programs Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-07-02 15:00 -0700
          Re: Typography of programs Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-07-04 00:20 +0000
            Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-03 18:28 -0700
              Re: Typography of programs Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-07-04 04:42 +0000
                Re: Typography of programs Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2011-07-04 01:01 -0500
                Re: Typography of programs Dr Nick <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2011-07-04 08:15 +0100
                Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-04 00:40 -0700
                Re: Typography of programs gordonb.3nbmk@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2011-07-04 07:42 -0500
                Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-04 07:15 -0700
                Re: Typography of programs Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-07-05 20:21 +0000
                Re: Typography of programs Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2011-07-04 09:56 -0500
                Re: Typography of programs Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-07-05 20:21 +0000
                Re: Typography of programs Angel <angel+news@spamcop.net> - 2011-07-04 08:04 +0000
                Re: Typography of programs Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2011-07-04 09:22 -0500
                Re: Typography of programs Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-07-05 20:21 +0000
                Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-05 22:45 +0200
                Re: Typography of programs Willem <willem@turtle.stack.nl> - 2011-07-05 21:52 +0000
                Re: Typography of programs Squeamizh <squeamz@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-05 20:03 -0700
                Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-06 08:46 +0200
                Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-06 00:08 -0700
                Re: Typography of programs Willem <willem@turtle.stack.nl> - 2011-07-06 12:12 +0000
                Re: Typography of programs Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2011-07-06 11:10 -0500
                Re: Typography of programs Dr Nick <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2011-07-06 07:42 +0100
    Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-02 11:02 +0200
      Re: Typography of programs Dr Nick <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2011-07-02 10:22 +0100
        Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-02 13:51 +0200
          Re: Typography of programs Dr Nick <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2011-07-02 15:45 +0100
      Re: Typography of programs gordonb.piror@burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) - 2011-07-02 07:31 -0500
        Re: Typography of programs Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net> - 2011-07-03 01:47 -0700
      Re: Typography of programs Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-03 03:10 -0700
        Re: Typography of programs superpollo <superpollo@tznvy.pbz> - 2011-07-04 15:19 +0200
      Re: Typography of programs "Herbert Rosenau" <os2guy@pc-rosenau.de> - 2011-07-03 19:39 +0000
        Re: Typography of programs "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-07-03 14:01 -0700
          Re: Typography of programs Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-07-03 14:26 -0700
            Re: Typography of programs "Kleuskes & Moos" <kleuske@xs4all.nl> - 2011-07-04 01:19 -0700
              Re: Typography of programs Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2011-07-04 14:19 -0700
        Re: Typography of programs Michael Press <rubrum@pacbell.net> - 2011-07-03 20:46 -0700
          Re: Typography of programs Seebs <usenet-nospam@seebs.net> - 2011-07-04 04:42 +0000
          Re: Typography of programs Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2011-07-04 00:43 -0500
            Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-03 23:03 -0700
              Re: Typography of programs James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2011-07-04 06:32 -0400
              Re: Typography of programs Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2011-07-04 09:08 -0500
          Re: Typography of programs Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-07-07 18:01 +0300
  Re: Typography of programs Dr Nick <3-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2011-07-02 16:28 +0100
  Re: Typography of programs pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry) - 2011-07-02 20:52 +0000
    Re: Typography of programs Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2011-07-04 00:50 -0500
  Re: Typography of programs "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2011-07-03 10:04 +0200
    Re: Typography of programs "io_x" <a@b.c.invalid> - 2011-07-03 10:27 +0200
  Re: Typography of programs Nick Keighley <nick_keighley_nospam@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-03 03:19 -0700
  Re: Typography of programs "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2011-07-06 10:14 +0100
    Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-06 02:48 -0700
      Re: Typography of programs "BartC" <bc@freeuk.com> - 2011-07-06 11:47 +0100
        Re: Typography of programs jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2011-07-06 14:46 +0200
          Re: Typography of programs China Blue Dolls <chine.bleu@yahoo.com> - 2011-07-06 07:44 -0700
          Re: Typography of programs Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2011-07-07 07:50 +1200

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