Re: Stack analysis tool that really work?

From	Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid>
Newsgroups	comp.arch.embedded
Subject	Re: Stack analysis tool that really work?
Date	2021-08-09 10:50 +0300
Organization	Tidorum Ltd
Message-ID	<inc519Feuf2U1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	(8 earlier) <segoc2$6dj$1@dont-email.me> <in2f27FfeehU1@mid.individual.net> <egrrggh9q1hasur4lt1unptujjhvk2v5ra@4ax.com> <in768jFeenmU1@mid.individual.net> <uci0hgpvq5a2rr3oel6i68qvgecnb48rke@4ax.com>

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On 2021-08-09 1:34, George Neuner wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Aug 2021 13:40:19 +0300, Niklas Holsti
> <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> On 2021-08-07 5:55, George Neuner wrote:
>>
>>> More importantly, how do you handle chains of conditional branches
>>> and/or switch/case constructs which can mispredict at every decision
>>> point?  The branch targets may not be in cache - neither mispredicted
>>> targets nor the actual one.  Worst case for a horribly mispredicted
>>> switch/case can be absolutely dreadful.
>>
>>
>> I don't know if those questions are addressed to me (re the Bound-T
>> tool) or to WCET analysis in general.
> 
> A little of both really.  I was hoping you had some smart(er) approach
> to estimating misprediction effects in systems that use dynamic
> prediction - even if it's just heuristic.

Sorry, but no.

> A lot of more powerful chips now are being used even in 'small'
> systems, and some of them do have dynamic prediction.  Note that Don
> is talking about Cortex A53, A55, etc.

Indeed, and therefore static WCET analysis is waning, and hybrid (partly 
measurement-based) WCET estimation is waxing.

> Dynamic prediction handles loop control quite well ... it's all the
> other branching code that is the problem.
> 
> WCET has use outside the 'embedded' world also.  A lot of my work was
> in QA/QC vision systems: tons of code, tons of features, workstation
> class processors, and still having to be /hard real time/.

(I would call that "embedded", because it is a computerized system used 
for a single purpose.)

One could say, perhaps meanly, that that is an ill-posed problem, with 
the wrong choice of processors. But cost matters, of course...

If you are not satisfied with Don's approach (extreme over-provision of 
processor power) you could try the hybrid WCET-estimation tools 
(RapiTime or TimeWeaver) which do not need to model the processors, but 
need to measure fine-grained execution times (on the basic-block level). 
The problem with such tools is that they cannot guarantee to produce an 
upper bound on the WCET, only a bound that holds with high probability. 
And, AIUI, at present that probability cannot be computed, and certainly 
depends on the test suite being measured. For example, on whether those 
tests lead to mispredictions in chains of conditional branches.

Thread

Stack analysis tool that really work? pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2021-07-29 18:22 +0200
  Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-07-29 19:36 +0300
  Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-08-02 17:56 -0700
    Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-08-03 11:43 +0300
      Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-08-03 02:28 -0700
        Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-08-04 22:14 +0300
          Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-08-04 15:43 -0700
    Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2021-08-03 11:49 +0200
      Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-08-03 20:17 -0700
        Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? pozz <pozzugno@gmail.com> - 2021-08-04 16:43 +0200
          Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-08-04 11:06 -0700
            Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-08-05 12:00 +0300
              Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-08-05 04:54 -0700
      Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-08-04 20:00 +0300
        Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-08-04 10:50 -0700
          Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-08-04 21:50 +0300
            Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-08-04 15:46 -0700
              Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-08-05 13:43 +0300
                Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-08-05 06:16 -0700
                Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-08-05 18:39 +0300
                Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-08-06 01:09 -0700
                Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-08-06 22:58 +0300
                Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-08-06 16:04 -0700
                Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-08-06 16:06 -0700
                Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-08-07 14:20 +0300
                Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-08-07 10:26 -0700
                Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-08-07 20:46 +0300
                Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-08-07 15:14 -0700
                Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-08-07 14:09 +0300
                Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-08-07 08:09 -0700
                Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-08-07 19:50 +0300
                Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-08-07 20:02 +0300
                Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-08-07 10:34 -0700
                Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-08-07 21:10 +0300
                Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2021-08-06 22:55 -0400
                Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-08-07 13:40 +0300
                Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2021-08-08 18:34 -0400
                Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-08-09 10:50 +0300
                Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2021-08-09 11:26 -0700
                Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-08-09 22:59 +0300
                Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-08-09 12:04 -0700
          Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2021-08-05 13:18 +0300
            Re: Stack analysis tool that really work? Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2021-08-05 04:59 -0700

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