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Groups > sci.electronics.design > #462291
| From | Gerhard Hoffmann <ghf@hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | sci.electronics.design |
| Subject | Re: Running out of ideas: stability, bootstrap |
| Date | 2017-05-30 15:53 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <ep5brsFb0a6U1@mid.individual.net> (permalink) |
| References | <ep07lpF4vr5U1@mid.individual.net> <fevlichmuqchsqpjkdsvqqesaj86oi8ol9@4ax.com> <13a943bf-ea78-44ac-a9f9-fa2c8b11640e@googlegroups.com> <ogjj3c02l5c@drn.newsguy.com> |
Am 30.05.2017 um 12:55 schrieb Winfield Hill:
> dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote...
>>
>> I don't trust 2.7V zeners or emitter-followers with
>> big base resistors here. Moving C666 should reveal
>> whether this node is the source of the weirdness.
>
> Indeed. Zin for the cascode Q3 emitter is 100/beta
> and beta = fT/f, which is 13 at 10MHz for FZT851, or
> Zin = 7.7 ohms at 10MHz, rising with f, acting as
> nasty 207nH inductor. Not to mention a 1.3nV.rt-Hz
> voltage-noise source. Axe that 100 ohms.
Yes, the 100R are just there to check the sensitivity.
The bad thing is that even for a zero Ohm resistor, the
S11 comes only a bit closer to the circle that
encloses the positive resistance region, but it still
takes a walk outside.
But I need at least a few Ohms so I can insert the
buffered input voltage for the bootstrap.
The entire bias chain has no impact on the total noise,
even including the Zener and with absolutely minimum
decoupling.
Here is a stripped down version in LTspice:
screendump:
<
https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/34987159135/in/album-72157682404684680/
>
noise results, including some contributors:
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/34823792822/in/album-72157682404684680/
>
It seems that above 1 MHz, the active loads quickly becomes ineffective
in suppressing the VCC noise. But 1 MHz BW is enough.
regards, Gerhard
---- >% ---- >% ---- >% ---- >% ---- >% ---- >% ---- >% ---- >%
Version 4
SHEET 1 2048 2404
WIRE -160 -320 -336 -320
WIRE 48 -320 -160 -320
WIRE 128 -320 48 -320
WIRE 256 -320 128 -320
WIRE 256 -272 256 -320
WIRE -336 -256 -336 -320
WIRE 128 -256 128 -320
WIRE -160 -224 -160 -320
WIRE 48 -192 48 -240
WIRE 128 -144 128 -192
WIRE 128 -144 112 -144
WIRE 256 -144 256 -208
WIRE 256 -144 128 -144
WIRE 128 -112 128 -144
WIRE 384 -96 352 -96
WIRE 496 -96 464 -96
WIRE -384 -32 -464 -32
WIRE 352 -16 352 -96
WIRE 496 -16 496 -96
WIRE 496 -16 416 -16
WIRE -336 32 -336 -256
WIRE -160 32 -160 -144
WIRE -160 32 -240 32
WIRE -112 32 -160 32
WIRE -32 32 -112 32
WIRE 464 32 432 32
WIRE 480 32 464 32
WIRE -384 48 -384 -32
WIRE 432 64 432 32
WIRE 48 80 48 -96
WIRE 352 80 352 -16
WIRE 352 80 48 80
WIRE 400 80 352 80
WIRE -464 96 -464 48
WIRE 496 96 496 -16
WIRE 496 96 464 96
WIRE 400 112 384 112
WIRE -160 128 -160 32
WIRE -32 144 -32 32
WIRE 240 144 -32 144
WIRE 384 144 384 112
WIRE 384 144 320 144
WIRE -384 176 -384 96
WIRE -384 176 -464 176
WIRE -336 176 -336 112
WIRE 432 176 432 128
WIRE 48 192 48 80
WIRE 496 208 496 96
WIRE -160 240 -160 208
WIRE -160 240 -208 240
WIRE -64 240 -80 240
WIRE -16 240 -64 240
WIRE -208 304 -208 240
WIRE -160 304 -160 240
WIRE -208 400 -208 368
WIRE -160 400 -160 368
WIRE 48 432 48 288
WIRE 48 448 48 432
WIRE -304 512 -384 512
WIRE -176 512 -240 512
WIRE -144 512 -176 512
WIRE 0 512 -144 512
WIRE 64 544 48 544
WIRE 144 544 64 544
WIRE 256 544 144 544
WIRE 368 544 320 544
WIRE 496 544 496 208
WIRE 496 544 448 544
WIRE 64 624 64 544
WIRE 176 624 64 624
WIRE 496 624 496 544
WIRE 496 624 256 624
WIRE 64 656 64 624
WIRE 496 672 496 624
WIRE -384 688 -384 512
WIRE -176 688 -176 512
WIRE 64 784 64 736
WIRE 400 784 256 784
WIRE 496 784 496 752
WIRE 496 784 464 784
WIRE -384 832 -384 768
WIRE -176 832 -176 768
WIRE 384 864 304 864
WIRE 496 864 496 784
WIRE 496 864 464 864
WIRE -384 880 -384 832
WIRE 304 912 304 864
WIRE 448 960 416 960
WIRE 480 960 448 960
WIRE -384 992 -384 960
WIRE 416 992 416 960
WIRE 496 1008 496 864
WIRE 496 1008 448 1008
WIRE -176 1024 -176 832
WIRE 256 1024 256 784
WIRE 256 1024 -176 1024
WIRE 304 1024 304 976
WIRE 304 1024 256 1024
WIRE 384 1024 304 1024
WIRE 496 1040 448 1040
WIRE 352 1088 320 1088
WIRE 416 1088 416 1056
WIRE 416 1088 352 1088
FLAG 240 1088 0
FLAG -336 256 0
FLAG -384 992 0
FLAG -144 512 vgat
FLAG 48 432 drain
FLAG 496 208 op_out
FLAG -336 -256 vcc
FLAG -64 240 Vbase
FLAG 448 960 vcc
FLAG 352 1088 vee
FLAG -176 832 bias
FLAG 144 544 source
FLAG -384 832 vgen
FLAG -464 512 0
FLAG 432 176 vee
FLAG -112 32 center
FLAG -208 400 0
FLAG 128 -32 0
FLAG 496 1040 0
FLAG -240 96 0
FLAG 64 784 0
FLAG 464 32 vcc
FLAG -160 400 0
FLAG 624 272 0
FLAG 688 320 0
FLAG 688 224 0
SYMBOL voltage -336 160 R0
WINDOW 0 -32 56 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2
WINDOW 39 -52 151 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName V1
SYMATTR Value 9.8
SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=0.001
SYMBOL voltage -384 864 R0
WINDOW 123 34 174 Left 2
WINDOW 39 24 132 Left 2
SYMATTR Value2 AC 1 1
SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=0
SYMATTR InstName V2
SYMATTR Value SINE(0.0 0.005 1000 0 0 0)
SYMBOL voltage 224 1088 R270
WINDOW 123 24 160 Left 2
WINDOW 39 -27 -60 Left 2
WINDOW 3 -2 -31 Left 2
WINDOW 0 -16 -106 Left 2
SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=0.1
SYMATTR Value 4.98
SYMATTR InstName V4
SYMBOL res 160 608 M90
WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName R20
SYMATTR Value 100
SYMBOL res 48 640 R0
SYMATTR InstName R30
SYMATTR Value 0.1
SYMBOL cap -240 496 R90
WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName C7
SYMATTR Value 30µ
SYMBOL res -192 672 R0
WINDOW 0 -65 75 Left 2
WINDOW 3 -67 107 Left 2
SYMATTR InstName R39
SYMATTR Value 60meg
SYMBOL njf 0 448 R0
WINDOW 0 -21 39 Left 2
WINDOW 3 -30 101 Left 2
WINDOW 123 -34 130 Left 2
SYMATTR InstName J1
SYMATTR Value IF3601
SYMATTR Value2 m=4
SYMBOL res -368 496 R90
WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName R12
SYMATTR Value 9999Meg
SYMBOL res 512 768 R180
WINDOW 0 36 76 Left 2
WINDOW 3 -77 43 Left 2
SYMATTR InstName R15
SYMATTR Value 10meg
SYMBOL Opamps\\LT1792 416 960 M0
SYMATTR InstName U5A
SYMBOL e -336 16 R0
SYMATTR InstName E1
SYMATTR Value 5
SYMBOL res -480 -48 R0
SYMATTR InstName R1
SYMATTR Value 60
SYMBOL res 464 528 R90
WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName R23
SYMATTR Value 0
SYMBOL cap 288 912 R0
SYMATTR InstName C5
SYMATTR Value 10µ
SYMBOL voltage -464 80 R0
WINDOW 0 -32 56 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2
WINDOW 39 -57 138 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName V3
SYMATTR Value 0.1µ
SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=0.1
SYMBOL res 336 128 R90
WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName R14
SYMATTR Value 100
SYMBOL res 480 848 R90
WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName R18
SYMATTR Value 10meg
SYMBOL cap 416 -32 R90
WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName C3
SYMATTR Value 47p
SYMBOL zener -192 368 R180
WINDOW 0 24 64 Left 2
WINDOW 3 -46 -65 Left 2
SYMATTR InstName D3
SYMATTR Value BZX84-C2v7
SYMBOL pnp 112 -96 R180
SYMATTR InstName Q1
SYMATTR Value ZTX951
SYMBOL res 32 -336 R0
SYMATTR InstName R1005
SYMATTR Value 33
SYMBOL res 112 -128 R0
SYMATTR InstName R1006
SYMATTR Value 1k
SYMBOL diode 112 -256 R0
WINDOW 0 46 -11 Left 2
WINDOW 3 40 48 Left 2
WINDOW 123 48 21 Left 2
SYMATTR InstName D1003
SYMATTR Value BAV99S
SYMATTR Value2 n=5
SYMBOL res 480 -112 R90
WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName R17
SYMATTR Value 400k
SYMBOL res -176 112 R0
WINDOW 3 38 71 Left 2
SYMATTR InstName R1003
SYMATTR Value 240
SYMBOL cap 464 768 R90
WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName C8
SYMATTR Value 2n2
SYMBOL cap -256 32 R0
WINDOW 3 42 43 Left 2
SYMATTR Value 47µ
SYMATTR InstName C1001
SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=0.1
SYMBOL res -64 224 R90
WINDOW 0 66 -8 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 40 56 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName R1414
SYMATTR Value 0.1
SYMBOL cap 320 528 R90
WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
SYMATTR InstName C6
SYMATTR Value 1p
SYMBOL cap 240 -272 R0
SYMATTR InstName C1004
SYMATTR Value 680µ
SYMBOL current -160 -224 R0
WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2
WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 2
SYMATTR InstName I1
SYMATTR Value 10m
SYMBOL Opamps\\opamp2 432 32 R0
SYMATTR InstName U1A
SYMATTR Value ths4021
SYMBOL res -400 672 R0
SYMATTR InstName R1000
SYMATTR Value 0.01
SYMBOL cap -176 304 R0
WINDOW 3 42 43 Left 2
WINDOW 0 36 69 Left 2
SYMATTR Value 47µ
SYMATTR InstName C1000
SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=0.1
SYMBOL npn -16 192 R0
SYMATTR InstName Q3
SYMATTR Value ZTX851
TEXT 168 336 Left 2 !.noise V(op_out) V2 dec 1000 100 1E7
TEXT 168 304 Left 2 !;ac dec 1000 10m 100Meg
TEXT -496 -80 Left 2 ;1nV/RtHz noise plus\njust non-zero offset
TEXT -376 -352 Left 2 ;Vcc + E1 * 1n VRtHz noise
TEXT 168 280 Left 2 !;tran 500s
TEXT 168 248 Left 2 !.op
TEXT 168 368 Left 2 !;.include d:\\lib\\spice\\ghf_spice_lib.txt
TEXT -1528 -560 Left 2
!*******************************************************************************\n\n*
THS4021 SUBCIRCUIT\n\n* HIGH SPEED MONLITHIC OPERATIONAL AMPLIFIER \n\n*
WRITTEN 1/6/99\n\n* NULL PINS ARE NOT MODELED\n\n* TEMPLATE=X^@REFDES
%IN+ %IN- %VCC+ %VCC- %OUT @MODEL\n\n* CONNECTIONS: NON-INVERTING
INPUT\n\n* | INVERTING INPUT\n\n* |
| POSITIVE POWER SUPPLY\n\n* | | | NEGATIVE POWER
SUPPLY\n\n* | | | | OUTPUT\n\n* | |
| | | \n\n* | | | | | \n\n* | | | |
| \n\n.SUBCKT THS4021 1 2 3 4 5 \n\n*\n\n* INPUT *\n\nQ1 33
1 17 NPN_IN 1\n\nQ2 34 2 17 NPN_IN 1\n\n\n* PROTECTION DIODES
*\n\nD2 5 3 D1N \n\nD1 4 5 D1N \n\nD4 4 2 D1N
\n\nD6 4 1 D1N \n\nD5 1 3 D1N \n\nD8 22 1 D1N
\n\nD7 22 2 D1N \n\nD3 2 3 D1N \n\n\n* SECOND STAGE
*\n\nQ3 08 Vref 33 PNP 0.5\n\nQ6 10 08 09 NPN 0.25\n\nQ4
10 Vref 34 PNP 0.5\n\nQ5 08 09 11 NPN 1\n\nQ7
09 09 12 NPN 1\n\nCc 0 10 Ct 4p \n\nR3 4 11 333
\n\nR4 4 12 333\n\n\n* SLEW RATE ENHANCEMENT *\n\nG6 0
10 1 2 0.75e-3\n\n\n\n\n* HIGH FREQUENCY SHAPING *\n\nLhf 18 19
23n \n\nRhf 13 19 25 \n\nChf 0 13 9p \n\nEhf
18 0 10 0 1\n\n\n* OUTPUT *\n\nQ8 13 13 35 PNP 1\n\nQ9
13 13 14 NPN 1\n\nQ10 3 35 15 NPN 12\n\nQ11 4 14 16
PNP 14\n\nR5 20 15 10 \n\nR7 16 20 10\n\n\n\n\n*
COMPLEX OUTPUT IMPEDANCE *\n\nR8 32 20 10 \n\nR9 31 20
10 \n\nL1 31 5 10n \n\nC1 32 5 25p \n\n\n\n\n*
BIAS SOURCES *\n\nG1 3 33 3 4 6.3e-6 \n\nG2 3 34 3 4
6.3e-6\n\nG3 0 35 3 4 5.4e-6\n\nG4 17 4 3 4
5.25e-6\n\nG5 14 0 3 4 6.1e-6\n\nI1 3 33 DC 1.3e-3
\n\nI2 3 34 DC 1.3e-3 \n\nI3 0 35 DC 1.5e-3 \n\nI4
17 4 DC 1.3e-3 \n\nI5 14 0 DC 1.7e-3 \n\nV1 3
Vref DC 2 \n\n\n* MODELS *\n\n.MODEL NPN_IN NPN\n\n+ IS=170E-18 BF=400
NF=1 VAF=100 IKF=0.0389 ISE=7.6E-18\n\n+ NE=1.13489 BR=1.11868 NR=1
VAR=4.46837 IKR=8 ISC=8E-15\n\n+ NC=1.8 RB=25 RE=0.1220 RC=20
CJE=120.2E-15 VJE=1.0888 MJE=0.381406\n\n+ VJC=0.589703 MJC=0.265838
FC=0.1 CJC=133.8E-15 XTF=272.204 TF=12.13E-12\n\n+ VTF=10 ITF=0.147
TR=3E-09 XTB=1 XTI=5 KF=2.5E-13\n\n\n.MODEL NPN NPN\n\n+ IS=170E-18
BF=100 NF=1 VAF=100 IKF=0.0389 ISE=7.6E-18\n\n+ NE=1.13489 BR=1.11868
NR=1 VAR=4.46837 IKR=8 ISC=8E-15\n\n+ NC=1.8 RB=250 RE=0.1220 RC=200
CJE=120.2E-15 VJE=1.0888 MJE=0.381406\n\n+ VJC=0.589703 MJC=0.265838
FC=0.1 CJC=133.8E-15 XTF=272.204 TF=12.13E-12\n\n+ VTF=10 ITF=0.147
TR=3E-09 XTB=1 XTI=5\n\n\n.MODEL PNP PNP\n\n+ IS=296E-18 BF=100 NF=1
VAF=100 IKF=0.021 ISE=494E-18\n\n+ NE=1.49168 BR=0.491925 NR=1
VAR=2.35634 IKR=8 ISC=8E-15\n\n+ NC=1.8 RB=250 RE=0.1220 RC=200
CJE=120.2E-15 VJE=0.940007 MJE=0.55\n\n+ VJC=0.588526 MJC=0.55 FC=0.1
CJC=133.8E-15 XTF=141.135 TF=12.13E-12\n\n+ VTF=6.82756 ITF=0.267
TR=3E-09 XTB=1 XTI=5\n\n\n.MODEL Ct CAP TC1=-0.0025\n\n\n.MODEL D1N D
IS=10E-15 N=1.836 ISR=1.565e-9 IKF=.04417 BV=30 IBV=10E-6 RS=45\n\n+
TT=11.54E-9 CJO=2E-12 VJ=.5 M=.3333\n\n\n.ENDS
TEXT -24 -352 Left 2 ;active load needed for PSSR
TEXT -384 1272 Left 2 !*ZETEX ZTX851 Spice model Last revision
21/1/93 (C) 1993 ZETEX PLC\n\n.MODEL ZTX851 NPN IS =1.0085E-12 NF
=1.0001 BF =240 IKF=5.1 VAF=158\n\n+ ISE=2E-13 NE =1.38 NR
=0.9988 BR =110 IKR=5.5 VAR=46 \n\n+ ISC=4.6515E-13 NC
=1.334 RB =0.025 RE =0.018 RC =0.015 \n\n+ CJC=155E-12
MJC=0.4348 VJC=0.6477 CJE=1.05E-9 \n\n+ TF =0.79E-9 TR
=24E-9\n \n.model if3601 njf beta=260m lambda=1m rd=40m rs=40m is=0.05n
cgd=1200p m=0.5 cgs=600p\n+ pb=0.75 kf=1e-18 b=1.8 vto=-1.5\n \n
\n.model bzx84-c2v7 d(is=110.88e-18 n=.92657 rs=.85899 ikf=147.68
cjo=344.69e-12 m=.31964\n+ vj=.72935 isr=1.5159e-6 bv=2.7639
ibv=69.770e-3 tt=17.889e-9 vpk=2.7 mfg=philips type=zener)\n \n \n.model
bav99s d(is=7.4960e-9 n=2.0077 rs=.80464 ikf=.1058 cjo=515.09e-15 m=.115
vj=.6389 \n+ isr=1.4182e-9 nr=4.9950 bv=90.375 ibv=10 tt=2.1640e-9
iave=0.2 vpk=75 mfg=philips type=silicon)\n \n.model ztx951 pnp
is=1.3766e-12 nf=1.013 bf=187 ikf=5.0 vaf=66.3 ise=1.4e-13 ne=1.41
nr=1.0099 \n+ br=56 ikr=0.9 var=33 isc=1.7e-12 nc=1.4 rb=0.029 re=0.020
rc=0.0255 cjc=287e-12 mjc=0.4522\n+ vjc=0.4956 cje=1.15e-9 tf=0.83e-9
tr=20e-9
TEXT 168 408 Left 2 !.savebias portable.bias internal
TEXT 176 440 Left 2 !;.loadbias portable.bias
Back to sci.electronics.design | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread
Running out of ideas: stability, bootstrap Gerhard Hoffmann <ghf@hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de> - 2017-05-28 17:11 +0200
Re: Running out of ideas: stability, bootstrap bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-28 12:09 -0400
Re: Running out of ideas: stability, bootstrap Gerhard Hoffmann <ghf@hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de> - 2017-05-28 23:01 +0200
Re: Running out of ideas: stability, bootstrap Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-28 14:30 -0700
Re: Running out of ideas: stability, bootstrap Gerhard Hoffmann <ghf@hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de> - 2017-05-28 23:56 +0200
Re: Running out of ideas: stability, bootstrap Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> - 2017-05-28 15:08 -0700
Re: Running out of ideas: stability, bootstrap John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> - 2017-05-28 09:46 -0700
Re: Running out of ideas: stability, bootstrap Gerhard Hoffmann <ghf@hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de> - 2017-05-28 22:09 +0200
Re: Running out of ideas: stability, bootstrap Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> - 2017-05-29 07:13 -0700
Re: Running out of ideas: stability, bootstrap dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-05-29 20:56 -0700
Re: Running out of ideas: stability, bootstrap Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-30 03:55 -0700
Re: Running out of ideas: stability, bootstrap Gerhard Hoffmann <ghf@hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de> - 2017-05-30 15:53 +0200
Re: Running out of ideas: stability, bootstrap dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-05-30 10:42 -0700
Re: Running out of ideas: stability, bootstrap bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-29 08:38 -0400
Re: Running out of ideas: stability, bootstrap bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-29 08:40 -0400
Re: Running out of ideas: stability, bootstrap Gerhard Hoffmann <ghf@hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de> - 2017-05-30 16:51 +0200
Re: Running out of ideas: stability, bootstrap Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-29 07:36 -0700
Re: Running out of ideas: stability, bootstrap bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-29 11:20 -0400
Re: Running out of ideas: stability, bootstrap Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-29 15:36 +0000
Re: Running out of ideas: stability, bootstrap bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-29 11:44 -0400
Re: Running out of ideas: stability, bootstrap bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> - 2017-05-29 11:53 -0400
Re: Running out of ideas: stability, bootstrap Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-29 17:01 +0000
Re: Running out of ideas: stability, bootstrap Winfield Hill <hill@rowland.harvard.edu> - 2017-05-29 08:46 -0700
Re: Running out of ideas: stability, bootstrap Jan Panteltje <pNa0nStpealmtje@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-29 16:56 +0000
Re: Running out of ideas: stability, bootstrap dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com - 2017-05-29 21:12 -0700
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