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Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia,

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On Sat, 2025-06-28 at 17:09 +0200, David Brown wrote:
> On 28/06/2025 09:16, wij wrote:
> > On Fri, 2025-06-27 at 10:53 +0200, David Brown wrote:
> > > On 27/06/2025 06:56, wij wrote:
> > > 
> > > > The problem of 'new' C++ is that rare real innovation but lots about specific
> > > > kinds of functions that are already covered by various kinds of libraries....
> > > > C++ seems mostly interested in making existing technique convenient and 'only'
> > > > dealing with 'small' (or part of) problems (e.g. avoiding to deal with graphics
> > > > or provide basic facilities).
> > > > But, nothing in all is actually wrong with the above, if C++ is 'in developing'.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > I think it is a good thing that the language is making existing
> > > techniques and code more convenient - that's better for the developer
> > > writing source code and/or more efficient for the run-time code.
> > > 
> > > But C++ has also evolved to allow very different kinds of techniques.
> > >   From C++11 onwards, it has changed from being "safer C with classes"
> > > into a language with increasing support for functional programming
> > > styles (lambdas, ranges), more generic programming (auto, more
> > > templates), compile-time programming (constexpr, consteval),
> > > requirements specifications (concepts, static assertions),
> > > multi-threading (threads, locks), asynchronous programming (coroutines),
> > > etc.
> > > 
> > > C++26 continues that trend - improving a number of existing techniques,
> > > and adding significant new ones (reflection and contracts).
> > 
> > What about if I say those many (not all) are 'programming style', ie. C++
> > invents 'standard' programming style while its propaganda says C++ is a
> > "multi-lingual" language?
> 
> I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are trying to say here.  I think 
> the term commonly used is "programming paradigm" - where "imperative", 
> "generic", "functional", "object oriented", etc., are "paradigms".  And 
> sometimes within a single language, these are referred to as 
> "programming styles".  Often the use of these terms, and the 
> distinctions between them, are somewhat artificial.
> 
> My point is just that C++ has evolved to let you write code in 
> significantly different ways.  If those other ways work better for the 
> problem you are trying to solve, then that's a good thing.  If they 
> don't, then feel free to ignore them in your code.
> 

But I think "one language suits all" (multi-paradigm) is a problematic ideal.
It is like the idea of 'universal compiler'.

I would measure 'multi-paradigm' this way:
Easier to program: Yes or no (increasing complexity)
Easier to understand: ditto (probably yes for documentation)
Less error prone: ditto
Less codes: yes (the lean side is more 'abstract')
maintenance: ???
debug: should be harder
...
Conclusion: What all the efforts are for? Seems only good for experenced user.

But yes, you are right, I only use those parts that suit 'my standard'.
The conseqences are other people's codes are less useful for me (vise versa).
Then this is a point: Program communication, 23n share,..

> > > You are right that it does not tackle the "big" things like graphics
> > > libraries.  Attempts to add networking have stalled AFAIUI.  In
> > > comparison to, say, Python, the standard library is much smaller.
> > > 
> > > I think this is, for the most part, fine.  I don't believe C++ should
> > > have these things in its standard library.  Python can have these,
> > > because Python is already huge and works on only a small number of
> > > platforms - basically, *nix and Win32/Win64.  C++ needs to be useable on
> > > a very much wider range of platforms now and in the future.  How can you
> > > have a truly portable networking standard library in C++ when there are
> > > dozens of networking stacks in use?  How can you have a standard
> > > graphics library for C++ when there are hundreds of graphics libraries
> > > used by C++ programmers, some of which are orders of magnitude bigger
> > > development projects than current standard C++?
> > > 
> > >   From the users' viewpoint, having more "big" features in a standard
> > > library for a language can often be a good thing.  I think there could
> > > be a lot of benefits from a repository project for quality
> > > cross-platform libraries for C++.  Boost is the nearest we have, but it
> > > is under-funded, inconsistent, poorly maintained, has jumbled
> > > dependencies, and poor quality control.  A real solution here would take
> > > considerable financial backing, because it would be a huge amount of work.
> > 
> > There could be 'standard way' of programming for some well defined applications
> > (but, why not inventing it earlier?).
> > C++ seems developing toward supporting specific applications directly, and
> > steering away from system programming (it is not easy for C++ to write
> > system programs like 'cp', merely copying files correctly and safer on a
> > platform). I just don't know what the C++ std-lib aims for.
> > 
> 
> I disagree.  C++ can be, and is, used for a wide variety of different 
> kinds of programming.  Not all aspects of the language and standard 
> library and suitable for all kinds of programming, naturally.
> 
> 

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"Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, Bulgaria)" by Herb Sutter Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> - 2025-06-22 19:37 -0500
  Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, Bulgaria)" Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2025-06-25 08:47 +0000
    Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, Bulgaria)" Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> - 2025-06-25 16:48 +0300
      Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2025-06-25 14:59 +0000
        Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-06-25 15:37 +0000
          Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2025-06-25 15:52 +0000
            Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-06-25 21:03 +0200
              Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2025-06-25 20:49 +0000
              Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2025-06-26 08:17 +0000
                Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-06-26 15:41 +0200
                Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2025-06-26 16:05 +0000
                Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-06-27 12:56 +0800
                Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-06-27 10:53 +0200
                Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-06-28 15:16 +0800
                Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-06-28 17:09 +0200
                Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-06-29 01:24 +0800
                Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-06-28 21:11 +0200
                Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2025-06-27 12:21 +0000
                Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-06-27 11:30 -0700
                Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-06-28 14:58 +0800
                Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2025-06-28 15:37 +0000
                Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-06-29 01:06 +0800
                Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2025-06-28 19:10 -0700
                Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2025-06-29 07:46 +0000
                Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2025-06-29 07:42 +0000
                Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-06-29 19:40 +0800
                Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com - 2025-06-29 16:05 +0000
                Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-06-30 01:59 +0800
                Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2025-06-30 07:34 +0000
                Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, wij <wyniijj5@gmail.com> - 2025-06-30 21:56 +0800
                Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, Muttley@DastardlyHQ.org - 2025-06-30 15:42 +0000
              Re: "Trip report: June 2025 ISO C++ standards meeting (Sofia, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> - 2025-06-26 16:00 +0000

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