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Re: Explaining Time Dilation

Newsgroups sci.physics.relativity
Date 2017-02-17 20:31 -0800
References <7467c518-4ec6-4132-b340-a8461e9e0773@googlegroups.com> <a0529a18-d808-4707-8f21-b1eb4516d12b@googlegroups.com> <cce1b12a-2add-476f-843a-8a50641e7479@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID <e0ea61fc-e800-42d5-b52b-5e7586fcd085@googlegroups.com> (permalink)
Subject Re: Explaining Time Dilation
From kenseto <setoken@att.net>

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On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 4:48:38 PM UTC-5, Ed Lake wrote:
> On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 10:53:47 AM UTC-6, kenseto wrote:
> > On Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 11:02:28 AM UTC-5, Ed Lake wrote:
> > > In 2010, the National Institute for Standards and Technology (NIST) demonstrated that gravitational time dilation is REAL and can be measured at altitude differences as small as 1 foot.  Here's their paper titled "Optical Clocks and Relativity": http://tf.boulder.nist.gov/general/pdf/2447.pdf  The paper explains:
> > 
> > This is not time dilation. It is that a clock second at a higher altitude has less  duration (absolute time content) than a clock second at the ground level. Current physics makes the bogus assumption that a clock second is a universal interval of time--it is not--and therefore when they observed that the higher clock accumulated more clock seconds than the ground clock, they concluded that time itself is dilated.
> > 
> 
> Sorry, but it IS time dilation and time dilation means that "a clock second at a higher altitude has less duration (absolute time content) than a clock second at the ground level."  In other words, time runs slower for the lower clock.

No....a clock second at the higher altitude contains less time (absolute time) is not time dilation. It is that each transition of the Cs 133 atom at the ground level takes a longer time (absolute time) to complete than a transition of the Cs 133 atom at  the higher altitude. Why? Because the completion of a transition of Cs 133 atom  is dependent on the arrival of a specific amount of energy and this, in turn, is dependent on the the state of absolute motion of the Cs 133 atom. At the higher altitude the arrival of the required energy takes less time and that's why the higher altitude clock accumulate clock seconds at a faster rate.

> 
> You are right that "Current physics makes the bogus assumption that a clock second is a universal interval of time."  That is what the Tom Roberts and others argue here.  
> 
> When someone observes "that the higher clock accumulated more clock seconds than the ground clock," however, they are just viewing things from the lower frame of reference. I.e., they are using that length of a second.  They could do the reverse and use the higher frame of reference, where they would say that the lower clock accumulated FEWER seconds than the higher clock.   
> 
> > BTW GRT has a valid explanation for the different rates of accumulation of clock seconds between the two clocks----they were following a different paths in spacetime. 
> 
> I would say that is bogus.  I would say that gravity had different effects on the clocks, slowing down the lower clock more than the higher clock.  
> 
> The best experiment is to have two clocks side by side that are synchronous.  You can then raise Clock-A and see that it ticks faster.  You can then lower Clock-A back to where it was and see that it now ticks at the same rate as Clock-B once again, but the ACCUMULATED time will be different.  The time shown by Clock-A will be slightly ahead of Clock-B.  
> 
> You need to explain how that relates to "following different paths in spacetime."  Spacetime is just a mathematical construct.  It's not real.  Gravity is real.
> 
> Ed

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Thread

Explaining Time Dilation Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2017-02-14 08:02 -0800
  Explaining Time Dilation "David (Lord Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-02-14 08:25 -0800
    Re: Explaining Time Dilation Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2017-02-14 08:50 -0800
      Re: Explaining Time Dilation "David (Lord Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-02-14 09:33 -0800
        Re: Explaining Time Dilation Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2017-02-14 10:00 -0800
          Re: Explaining Time Dilation "David (Lord Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-02-14 11:16 -0800
            Re: Explaining Time Dilation Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2017-02-14 12:42 -0800
              Re: Explaining Time Dilation Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-14 14:45 -0600
                Re: Explaining Time Dilation Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2017-02-15 08:07 -0800
                Re: Explaining Time Dilation "David (Lord Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-02-15 08:17 -0800
                Re: Explaining Time Dilation Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2017-02-15 14:57 -0600
                Re: Explaining Time Dilation Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2017-02-16 06:54 -0800
                Re: Explaining Time Dilation Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2017-02-16 16:18 +0100
                Re: Explaining Time Dilation Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2017-02-16 08:09 -0800
                Re: Explaining Time Dilation "David (Lord Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-02-16 08:14 -0800
                Re: Explaining Time Dilation Poutnik <poutnik4nntp@gmail.com> - 2017-02-16 17:54 +0100
                Re: Explaining Time Dilation Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2017-02-16 13:53 -0800
                Re: Explaining Time Dilation Bret Noss <osotr@rwtropsws.org> - 2017-02-21 16:58 +0000
                Re: Explaining Time Dilation paparios <paparios@gmail.com> - 2017-02-16 07:32 -0800
        Re: Explaining Time Dilation Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-15 10:46 -0800
          Re: Explaining Time Dilation Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2017-02-15 12:46 -0800
  Re: Explaining Time Dilation Dirk Van de moortel <dirkvandemoortel@hotspam.not> - 2017-02-14 18:27 +0100
    Re: Explaining Time Dilation Robert Winn <rbwinn3@gmail.com> - 2017-02-15 08:23 -0800
    Re: Explaining Time Dilation Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2017-02-15 09:15 -0800
      Re: Explaining Time Dilation Dirk Van de moortel <dirkvandemoortel@hotspam.not> - 2017-02-15 18:20 +0100
  Re: Explaining Time Dilation kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-02-16 08:53 -0800
    Re: Explaining Time Dilation Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2017-02-16 13:48 -0800
      Re: Explaining Time Dilation kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-02-17 06:24 -0800
        Re: Explaining Time Dilation Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2017-02-17 07:19 -0800
          Re: Explaining Time Dilation "David (Lord Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-02-17 07:45 -0800
      Re: Explaining Time Dilation kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-02-17 20:31 -0800
        Re: Explaining Time Dilation Ed Lake <detect@newsguy.com> - 2017-02-18 08:08 -0800
          Re: Explaining Time Dilation Eckard B <eckard.blumschein@arcor.de> - 2017-02-20 01:59 -0800
            Re: Explaining Time Dilation Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2017-02-21 08:55 -0600
              Re: Explaining Time Dilation mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-02-21 07:00 -0800
              Re: Explaining Time Dilation kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-02-22 06:22 -0800
              Re: Explaining Time Dilation kenseto <setoken@att.net> - 2017-02-22 06:32 -0800
          Re: Explaining Time Dilation alsor@interia.pl - 2017-02-20 10:42 -0800
            Re: Explaining Time Dilation Eckard B <eckard.blumschein@arcor.de> - 2017-02-21 00:59 -0800
              Re: Explaining Time Dilation Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2017-02-21 09:08 -0600
                Re: Explaining Time Dilation Eckard B <eckard.blumschein@arcor.de> - 2017-02-21 08:39 -0800
                Re: Explaining Time Dilation Eckard B <eckard.blumschein@arcor.de> - 2017-02-24 07:16 -0800
              Re: Explaining Time Dilation "David (Lord Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-02-21 10:06 -0800
                Re: Explaining Time Dilation "David (Lord Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-02-21 12:28 -0800
                Re: Explaining Time Dilation Eckard B <eckard.blumschein@arcor.de> - 2017-02-22 04:24 -0800
                Re: Explaining Time Dilation "David (Lord Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2017-02-22 05:40 -0800
              Re: Explaining Time Dilation alsor@interia.pl - 2017-02-21 12:26 -0800
  Re: Explaining Time Dilation Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-02-20 21:11 +1100
    Re: Explaining Time Dilation mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2017-02-20 02:59 -0800
    Re: Explaining Time Dilation Eckard B <eckard.blumschein@arcor.de> - 2017-02-20 09:57 -0800
      Re: Explaining Time Dilation Eckard B <eckard.blumschein@arcor.de> - 2017-02-21 00:52 -0800
        Re: Explaining Time Dilation Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address> - 2017-02-21 20:29 +1100
        Re: Explaining Time Dilation "Paul B. Andersen" <relativity@paulba.no> - 2017-02-21 15:27 +0100

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