Groups > alt.atheism > #1930279

Re: aa #16. HOW WOULD YOU DRAW THE LINE BETWEEN THE RIGHTS OF AN INDIVIDUAL VS. SOCIETY'S RIGHT TO MAKE RESTRICTIVE LAWS/

From	"Alex W." <ingilt@yahoo.co.uk>
Newsgroups	alt.atheism
Subject	Re: aa #16. HOW WOULD YOU DRAW THE LINE BETWEEN THE RIGHTS OF AN INDIVIDUAL VS. SOCIETY'S RIGHT TO MAKE RESTRICTIVE LAWS/
Date	2015-06-23 12:15 +0200
Message-ID	<cuspt4Fph7fU1@mid.individual.net> (permalink)
References	<cf32e8af-60cd-4e73-92d2-0a37ed657669@googlegroups.com> <7264d746-cae0-4610-b975-513cb6211a4d@googlegroups.com> <cug7s2Fk05mU1@mid.individual.net> <2d0a1116-8f29-4a69-90e2-0ec35ab969a3@googlegroups.com>

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On 22/06/2015 18:01, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
> On Thursday, 18 June 2015 16:53:41 UTC+1, Alex W.  wrote:
>> On 18/06/2015 12:07, Malcolm McMahon wrote:
>>> On Thursday, 18 June 2015 08:51:06 UTC+1, hypatiab7  wrote:
>>>> This is an aa thread for atheists only, as per all the alt.atheism FAQs.
>>>> Lurker atheists are welcome. PLEASE DON'T FEED THE TROLLS. I know it's
>>>> hard, since they deliberately ask upsetting questions or lie about us,
>>>> but please try. I'm trying, too, and it ain't easy.
>>>>
>>>> #16. How would you draw the line between the rights of an individual vs.
>>>> society's right to make restrictive laws?
>>>
>>> On the basis of quantifiable harm. The harm prevented by a law must demonstrably exceed the harm done by enforcing it. (And enforcing criminal law is always doing harm).
>>
>> That does not clarify matters much.
>
> But it does provide a general framework.
>
>> Harm is often hugely subjective and determined by the individual.  Take
>> free speech: a joke about Jews or blacks may be ethnic assertiveness,
>> racist cant or just observational humour -- it all depends on the
>> listener.
>>
>
> I think most would agree that no-one has a legal right not to be offended, or disgusted.

That depends.
In certain jurisdictions, the pendulum has swung so far that exactly 
this is being enshrined in law or policy.  There are now colleges in the 
US where art exhibits or teaching material are vetted and may be removed 
on the say-so of students who decide they feel offended.

In sex discrimination and harassment situations, too, the decisive 
factor is not an objective set of circumstances but the subjective 
decision of an individual.

>
> "Political correctness" has transformed the social discourse, but political correctness is about social pressure, not about law.

It may have started out as social pressure but it has moved well into 
the arena of law.  Just think of affirmative action and 
anti-discrimination legislation that has been expanded to cover ever 
more minority or deprived social groups.  Or colleges that enshrine 
political correctness not just in their curriculum but their campus 
policies and regulations.

>
> There's the classic example of shouting "Fire" in a crowded cinema but inciting people to violence is already covered without "hate speech" laws.
>
>
>>
>>>
>>> Then, of course, there's the often contentious question of defining harm. For example not paying your taxes causes harm, but its not so easily quantified as shooting your wife.
>>>
>>
>> Quite so.  Not paying taxes may cause harm to the state by withholding
>> funds the state requires to discharge its duties.  On the other hand,
>> the money not paid in taxes is spent or invested which then benefits
>> others.
>
> But it's part of human nature (primate nature actually) to detest freeloaders. Too many freeloaders and _everyone_ stops cooperating.
>

I think it's more differentiated.  Yes, it is human nature to detest 
freeloaders -- but they have to be perceived as such.  Tax evasion is a 
good example, actually, because although it is an act which is 
perpetrated by the majority of taxpaying citizens, it is only condemned 
when it is done by big corporations or the extremely wealthy.  When Joe 
Q pays his builder in cash or fiddles his tax-deductible business 
expenses, that's something very few people condemn -- indeed, most 
people happily admit to it and may even brag about it.

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