Groups > sci.electronics.design > #460645

Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!!

Subject	Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!!
Newsgroups	sci.electronics.design, comp.dsp, comp.arch.embedded
References	(3 earlier) <MQJSA.9091$aI2.6772@fx10.am4> <0cCdnc-xRuxg5YbEnZ2dnUU7-bWdnZ2d@giganews.com> <NnLSA.578$OK2.486@fx09.am4> <0cCdncixRuyFEYbEnZ2dnUU7-bWdnZ2d@giganews.com> <g7MSA.23582$rp2.23321@fx31.iad>
From	Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID	<cXTSA.28677$lN5.11852@fx40.am4> (permalink)
Organization	virginmedia.com
Date	2017-05-17 09:35 +0100

Cross-posted to 3 groups.

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On 17/05/17 00:41, Clifford Heath wrote:
> On 17/05/17 09:32, Tim Wescott wrote:
>> On Tue, 16 May 2017 23:51:26 +0100, Tom Gardner wrote:
>>
>>> On 16/05/17 23:11, Tim Wescott wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 16 May 2017 22:05:49 +0100, Tom Gardner wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 16/05/17 21:24, Tim Wescott wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 16 May 2017 20:17:17 +0000, eric.jacobsen wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, 16 May 2017 13:49:28 -0500, Tim Wescott
>>>>>>> <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since this is a newsgroup, and this is news...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Wescott Design Services is going into remission, while I pursue a
>>>>>>>> day job.  Job title is Software Designer 5 at Planar Systems -- so
>>>>>>>> any circuit design or control systems jones will have to be
>>>>>>>> satisfied by hobby work or on the side.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Software Designer 5?   Sounds a little like being in Sector 7-G?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Really Senior Embedded Guy".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In the near term I'll be finishing up current work with current
>>>>>>>> customers; in the longer term I'll probably concentrate on the
>>>>>>>> educational videos and maybe hobby stuff.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lots of embedded Linux work in my near future, and possibly TDD
>>>>>>>> proselytizing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Time Division Duplex?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Test Driven Design.
>>>>>
>>>>> Be prepared to meet some people that believe X works /because/ all the
>>>>> unit tests for X are passed and the console shows a green light.
>>>>
>>>> Well, yes.  The two main good things about TDD for me is that it makes
>>>> me think early about how something really should work, and there are
>>>> finer- grained tests to make sure that if I did something really
>>>> dumbass it gets caught.
>>>>
>>>> Even with TDD, I still find errors, so I don't live under the delusion
>>>> that you can test in quality.
>>>>
>>>>> Usually they have never been introduced to the concept that "you can't
>>>>> test quality into a product".
>>>>> Unit tests developed as part of TDD are highly beneficial, but are not
>>>>> sufficient.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I'm sure you know that!
>>>>
>>>> Yea verily!!
>>>
>>> The other dysfunctional aspect of unit tests is that,
>>> while they are very useful when making incremental improvements during
>>> design, they can be a real impediment in a few months/years time. The
>>> problem is that over time people forget which tests demonstrate required
>>> properties, and which are merely ensuring behaviour of implementation
>>> artifacts. At that point people are afraid to make changes that break
>>> tests, even if the tests are unimportant. At that point the codebase has
>>> become ossified.
>>>
>>> Classic anti-patterns warning of that: unit tests on getters/setters,
>>> and/or changing visibility solely to enable unit tests.
>>
>> That's an interesting point.  I haven't been using TDD long enough for
>> that to be an issue.  Good to know!
>
> TDD works where it gives you *another way* to state your expectations.
> Testing getter/setters never says more about the getter/setter than
> is said by their declaration, so the tests have zero value.

Er, that's not TDD, that is Unit Tests. To be overly
simplistic, TDD is a strategy for generating Unit Tests.


> The important thing is to say "how else can I state this requirement?".
> If you're using truly succinct code, such as strongly-typed Haskell,
> there often is simply *no other way* to describe the expected behavior.
> That's why FP aficionados scoff at TDD zealots. Programming with strong
> types is always better than using TDD.

Strong typing is very beneficial, but is completely
insufficient. As one of an infinite number of trivial
examples, consider testing for X>Y when you should
be testing for Y>X.

Thread

[OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-05-16 13:49 -0500
  Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! George Herold <gherold@teachspin.com> - 2017-05-16 11:55 -0700
    Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really> - 2017-05-16 15:13 -0500
      Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-05-16 17:18 -0500
  Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-05-16 19:04 +0000
  Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 12:14 -0700
    Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really> - 2017-05-16 14:41 -0500
      Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 14:01 -0700
        Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! mike <ham789@netzero.net> - 2017-05-16 14:42 -0700
        Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-05-16 17:09 -0500
          Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 16:42 -0700
        Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Clifford Heath <clifford.heath@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 09:00 +1000
    Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! tabbypurr@gmail.com - 2017-05-16 13:40 -0700
  [OT] I got a JOB!!! bulegoge@columbus.rr.com - 2017-05-16 12:27 -0700
  Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! eric.jacobsen@ieee.org - 2017-05-16 20:17 +0000
    Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really> - 2017-05-16 15:24 -0500
      Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-16 22:05 +0100
        Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-05-16 17:11 -0500
          Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-16 23:51 +0100
            Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-05-16 18:32 -0500
              Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Clifford Heath <clifford.heath@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 09:41 +1000
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 09:35 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-17 19:03 +1000
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 10:31 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-17 23:07 +1000
              Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 09:41 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Paul <paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 10:10 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 10:34 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Paul <paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 15:59 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 18:04 +0100
              Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 18:02 +0100
            Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 17:56 -0700
              Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 09:42 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-05-17 16:57 +0800
  Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! "billbowden" <bperryb@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> - 2017-05-16 15:04 -0700
    Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 15:30 -0700
      Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! "billbowden" <bperryb@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> - 2017-05-18 16:00 -0700
        Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-18 16:18 -0700
        Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-05-18 19:14 -0500
          Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! "billbowden" <bperryb@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> - 2017-05-18 21:40 -0700
  Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Martin Riddle <martin_ridd@verizon.net> - 2017-05-16 20:02 -0400
  Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-16 20:40 -0400
  Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Randy Yates <randyy@garnerundergroundinc.com> - 2017-05-17 09:12 -0400
    Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really> - 2017-05-17 10:02 -0500
      Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 18:11 +0100
        Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-05-17 12:21 -0500
          Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 18:36 +0100
            Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-05-17 12:43 -0500
              Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 18:55 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 18:57 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-05-17 13:28 -0500
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 20:08 +0100
  Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! boB K7IQ <boB@everett.wa> - 2017-05-17 21:30 -0700
    Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really> - 2017-05-18 00:03 -0500
    Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-18 08:18 +0100
      Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! boB K7IQ <boB@everett.wa> - 2017-05-18 22:56 -0700
        Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Vassilis Spiliopoulos <vassilis@vask1lux.de> - 2017-05-19 14:31 +0300
          Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really> - 2017-05-19 10:39 -0500
            Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Vassilis Spiliopoulos <vassilis@vask1lux.de> - 2017-05-19 23:02 +0300
              Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-19 13:12 -0700
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! dplatt@coop.radagast.org (Dave Platt) - 2017-05-19 15:00 -0700
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-19 16:05 -0700
              Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! boB K7IQ <boB@everett.wa> - 2017-05-21 01:46 -0700
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Vassilis Spiliopoulos <vassilis@vask1lux.de> - 2017-05-21 17:31 +0300
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> - 2017-05-21 13:31 -0500
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-21 16:47 -0400

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