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Re: Halting problem and the possibilities that Diagonalization simply ignores

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On 5/25/21 11:25 PM, olcott wrote:
> On 5/25/2021 10:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> On 5/25/21 10:57 PM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 5/25/2021 9:02 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 5/25/21 1:52 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Conventional analysis utterly ignores the fact that a simulating halt
>>>>> decider would possibly abort the simulation of H_Hat before ever
>>>>> needing
>>>>> to return any value to H_Hat.
>>>>
>>>> And if H doesn't return the answer to the H_Hat that called it, It
>>>> doesn't return the answer to anybody, so failed to be a decider.
>>>>
>>>> Fundamental requirement of a Computation.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You are saying that on the basis that Halts() does not return any value
>>> to main() that it does not return any value to H_Hat()
>>>
>>> Within the context of the execution trace where Halts() does return a
>>> value to main() and does not return any value to H_Hat() that is a very
>>> stupid thing to keep repeating.
>>>
>>> void H_Hat(u32 P)
>>> {
>>>    u32 Input_Halts = Halts(P, P);
>>>    if (Input_Halts)
>>>      HERE: goto HERE;
>>> }
>>>
>>> int main()
>>> {
>>>    u32 Input_Would_Halt = Halts((u32)H_Hat, (u32)H_Hat);
>>>    Output("Input_Would_Halt = ", Input_Would_Halt);
>>> }
>>>
>>> http://www.liarparadox.org/Halting_problem_undecidability_and_infinitely_nested_simulation.pdf
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It is like someone could hit you in the face with a Boston cream pie and
>>> as the pie drips off you face and making it difficult for you to talk
>>> you MUMBLE THERE IS NO PIE !!!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> IF Halts does not return its answer to the copy of H_Hat directly called
>> by main, then Halts FLUNKS the test of being a Computation (and YOU
>> flunk the Turing Test)
>>
> 
> I am going to quit talking to you on the basis that you are unable to
> comprehend the software engineering principle that no function ever
> called in infinite recursion ever returns any value to its caller.
> 
> If you can't understand something as simple as this then you are far too
> unqualified of a reviewer for me to spend time reading or replying to.
> 

AND what YOU don't understand is the Computation Theory principle that a
Computation (and thus a Turing Machine) MUST behave the same for all
invocations of it for a given input. Thus if H won't return an answer to
H^, then it CAN'T return the answer when asked directly. THus H can NOT
be a finite computation for the problem of H^,H^.

As has been pointed out, the code you have described for H fails to be a
real computation, and thus is NOT the equivalent for a Turing Machine,
and thus can't be a candidate for H.

If H^(H^) -> H(H^,H^) ->  H^(H^) was a REAL infinite recursion, then
H(H^,H^) can't ever return to anybody, and thus doesn't answer.

Once H has the smarts to break the loop so it can answer when asked
directly, it need to do the same when called by H^, as it is no o=longer
called in infinite recursion.

That Software Engineering principle applies to TRULY infinite recursion,
not potential infinite recursion or infinite recursion of a case that
isn't what was given.

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Thread

Done with Olcott. Kaz Kylheku <563-365-8930@kylheku.com> - 2021-05-25 16:56 +0000
  Re: Done with Olcott. Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2021-05-25 21:06 +0100
    Is this understanding of diagonalization correct? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-05-25 15:11 -0500
      Re: Is this understanding of diagonalization correct? olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-05-25 15:40 -0500
    Is this understanding of diagonalization correct? CORRECTION olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-05-25 16:18 -0500
    Re: Done with Olcott. Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2021-05-26 03:33 +0100
      Re: Done with Olcott. olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-05-25 21:43 -0500
        Re: Done with Olcott. Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-05-25 23:23 -0400
      Re: Done with Olcott. Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> - 2021-05-26 16:42 +0100
        Re: Done with Olcott. olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-05-26 11:31 -0500
          Re: Done with Olcott. Daniel Pehoushek <pehoushek1@gmail.com> - 2021-05-26 09:51 -0700
      Re: Done with Olcott. olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-05-26 11:21 -0500
        Re: Done with Olcott. "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-05-26 13:18 -0700
    Is this understanding of diagonalization correct? (final draft) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-05-25 16:25 -0500
  Re: Halting problem and the possibilities that Diagonalization simply ignores Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-05-25 22:02 -0400
    Re: Halting problem and the possibilities that Diagonalization simply ignores olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-05-25 21:57 -0500
      Re: Halting problem and the possibilities that Diagonalization simply ignores Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-05-25 23:13 -0400
        Re: Halting problem and the possibilities that Diagonalization simply ignores olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-05-25 22:25 -0500
          Re: Halting problem and the possibilities that Diagonalization simply ignores Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-05-26 08:13 -0400
            Re: Halting problem and the possibilities that Diagonalization simply ignores(Proxy inputs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-05-26 09:18 -0500
              Re: Halting problem and the possibilities that Diagonalization simply ignores(Proxy inputs) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-05-26 19:29 -0400
  Re: Eliminating the pathological self-reference error of the halting theorem (V11)(Proxy inputs) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-05-25 12:15 -0500
  Halting problem and the possibilities that Diagonalization simply ignores olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2021-05-25 12:52 -0500

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