Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.lang.c > #23018

Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all?

Show all headers | View raw

On 06/30/12 05:48 AM, Tim Rentsch wrote:
> Ian Collins<ian-news@hotmail.com>  writes:
>> On 06/28/12 12:23 PM, Tim Rentsch wrote:
>>>
>>> How would this be done?  Simple.  The compiler notices the check
>>> of the address of the VLA immediately after its declaration,
>>> and does that check _before_ adjusting the stack pointer, ie,
>>> generated code would include an addition (to the current stack
>>> pointer) and a compare (to a stack limit value), before installing
>>> the new value as the current stack pointer.
>>
>> Assuming you have a stack limit value available.
>
> I find it hard to believe that there's a platform in use today
> where some limit value (perhaps a conservative one) could not be
> discovered.  However, assuming there is such a platform, there's
> an easy way out - it can just always indicate that an allocation
> fails.  The absence of a safely allocated VLA will be detected
> and handled as the program sees fit.

While I admit I've never looked too hard, I don't recall any of the 
embedded systems I've used having one.  It simply isn't a very common 
thing to do.

>>> It's hard to imagine
>>> an architecture where VLAs can be implemented cheaply but this
>>> check is expensive to do;  so the runtime cost is pretty close to
>>> zero, and actually would be zero for code that uses VLAs without
>>> any checking.
>>
>> I would expect it to be expensive on most, unless they already
>> have a mechanism in place.
>
> I have no idea why you think that.  All that is needed is
> (1) getting the address of the place in the stack where
> the VLA would go, (2) an addition (or subtraction) to
> compare against a stack limit, and (3) the availability of
> a stack limit to compare against.  Parts (1) and (2) are
> pretty much necessary for (inexpensive) VLAs without checking;
> part (3) was covered above.  It's a few instructions, I would
> guess, and not more than that, on most platforms out there.
>
> So let me turn that around and ask if you can give an
> example of a platform where it's easy to provide VLAs
> but hard to provide checking of the kind I've described.

Well on most Unix systems the stack limit can be changed on a running 
process, so that muddies the waters a bit.  The Solaris compiler does 
have a stack check option, but I believe it causes a early SEGV rather 
than an error return.  I know Solaris also has a mechanism for getting 
the process context, which include the stack.  So yes VLAs could be 
checked, but the compiler and the OS would have to cooperate.

Having to make a function call behind the scenes removes the simplicity 
and immediacy of VLAs.  Does it narrow the performance gap with malloc 
significantly?  Maybe.

Maybe a compromise would be to standardise a function like alloca with a 
requirement to perform a space check?

-- 
Ian Collins

Back to comp.lang.c | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-06-26 15:28 +0100
  Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-06-26 11:54 -0400
  Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-06-26 21:05 +0200
    Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-06-26 21:04 +0100
      Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-06-26 13:09 -0700
        Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-06-27 17:50 +1200
          Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-06-27 07:57 +0200
            Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2012-06-27 00:49 -0700
            Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-06-27 13:50 +0100
              Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Eric Sosman <esosman@ieee-dot-org.invalid> - 2012-06-27 10:21 -0400
                Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2012-06-27 19:56 +0100
          Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-06 00:55 +0300
            Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Andrew Cooper <amc96@cam.ac.uk> - 2012-07-05 23:37 +0100
              Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-07-06 16:53 -0700
            Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-07-06 18:26 +1200
              Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-07 17:37 +0300
                Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-07-08 08:03 +1200
            Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2012-07-06 02:58 -0700
              Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-07-06 18:11 -0700
                Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2012-07-09 02:33 -0700
                Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-07-09 11:35 -0700
                Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Ike Naar <ike@iceland.freeshell.org> - 2012-07-09 22:33 +0000
                Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-07-10 10:52 -0700
                Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-07-09 12:03 -0700
                Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-07-10 09:19 +1200
        Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2012-06-27 07:25 +0100
    Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-06-27 07:10 +0200
      Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-06-27 20:48 +0200
  Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Jens Gustedt <jens.gustedt@loria.fr> - 2012-06-26 21:13 +0200
    Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-06-26 20:47 +0100
      Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2012-06-26 13:05 -0700
      Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? David Resnick <lndresnick@gmail.com> - 2012-06-26 13:51 -0700
        Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-06-26 17:10 -0700
        Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Gareth Owen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2012-06-27 07:27 +0100
        Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Rui Maciel <rui.maciel@gmail.com> - 2012-06-27 20:23 +0100
  Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-06-27 11:20 -0700
    Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-06-28 09:35 +1200
      Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-06-27 17:23 -0700
        Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-06-28 13:06 +1200
          Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-06-29 10:48 -0700
            Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2012-06-30 21:58 +1200
              Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2012-06-30 03:37 -0700
              Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-07-01 19:31 -0700
            Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-06 00:54 +0300
              Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-07-06 17:58 -0700
        Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-06 00:49 +0300
          Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-07-06 16:38 -0700
            Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-07 18:00 +0300
              Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-07-07 12:40 -0700
                Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry) - 2012-07-08 02:54 +0000
                Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? jacob navia <jacob@spamsink.net> - 2012-07-08 13:33 +0200
                Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry) - 2012-07-08 22:18 +0000
                Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-07-09 10:57 -0700
                Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? pacman@kosh.dhis.org (Alan Curry) - 2012-07-09 21:38 +0000
                Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-07-10 11:12 -0700
                Re: Variable-length arrays: should they be used at all? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2012-07-08 11:28 -0700

csiph-web