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Re: Operator precedence

From GS <nomail@nospam.org.invalid>
Newsgroups comp.lang.php
Subject Re: Operator precedence
Date 2014-02-25 21:45 +0000
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <XnsA2DFDD5A74418R2D2@127.0.0.1> (permalink)
References (4 earlier) <lee9kd$hq4$1@dont-email.me> <0.914eafe42061d70d7566.20140224044930GMT.87fvn9ru79.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <4293011.KJL4Tygh8x@PointedEars.de> <0.60537d4b87ccab3ac30a.20140224212551GMT.87ppmcqk2o.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <6171065.55Kx8BzDJ9@PointedEars.de>

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Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> wrote:

> Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> 
>> Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> writes:
>>> Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> […] Expressions are built from operators, but is ',' an operator
>>>> in PHP? It appears in the operator precedence table but it isn't an
>>>> operator in an sense that would normally be understood by someone
>>>> familiar with these terms. 
>>>
>>> ECMAScript has a “Comma Operator”, too.
>> 
>> But my point was the PHP doesn't have one --
> 
> But it does:
> 
>   for ($i = 0, $j = 42; $i < $j; ++$i);
>              ^

The comma serves as a separator here, not an operator. It's just
separating items in a list in the same way you do with arguments in a
function call. I think the reason it's in the operator table is just to
clarify that expressions in a list don't need to be bracketed since all
real operators bind more tightly than "," (as you'd expect). 

Formally, an operator is just a function which uses infix notation for
its arguments, ie. semantically a OP b = OP(a,b). In fact, some
languages let you define your own operators in exactly the same way as
you do functions. So things like , and ; are not operators (in PHP
anyway) since unlike stuff such as + or > they don't denote functions
which operate on their operands. 

The only reason we have operators at all in programming languages is
because the infix notation is familiar and saves us from the LISP hell
of endlessly bracketing  everything. Most people find a+b/c easier on
the eye than +(a,/(b,c)). The drawback of the infix notation is it
creates ambiguities that have to be resolved in the language definition
e.g. by assigning a precedence to every operator, or stipulating linear
evaluation, or requiring that every expression containing more than one
operator be bracketed. 

This brings us back to what started this thread, namely that in order to
understand the meaning of a PHP expression you need a formal definition
of how expressions are evaluated, including precedence rules. The
existence of a "but..." in the operator precedence documentation subtley
reveals that the formal definition of a PHP expression is not what we
might have thought it to be, as has since been clarified by those
posters who have looked at the source code. 

Looking again at the Language Reference page, "Expressions", I think my
original comment that it does not define what an expression is (for
Jerry's benefit I should say "what a PHP expression is"!) still stands.
It gives several examples but falls short of a formal definition which
would tell us whether or not we can use constructions like !$a && $a =
42.

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Thread

Operator precedence Christoph Michael Becker <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2014-02-23 18:03 +0100
  Re: Operator precedence GS <nomail@nospam.org.invalid> - 2014-02-23 19:42 +0000
    Re: Operator precedence Christoph Michael Becker <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2014-02-23 21:23 +0100
    Re: Operator precedence Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2014-02-23 16:34 -0500
      Re: Operator precedence Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2014-02-23 18:36 -0500
        Re: Operator precedence Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2014-02-23 21:09 -0500
          Re: Operator precedence Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-02-24 04:49 +0000
            Re: Operator precedence Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2014-02-24 12:56 +0100
              Re: Operator precedence Christoph Michael Becker <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2014-02-24 17:38 +0100
              Re: Operator precedence Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-02-24 21:25 +0000
                Re: Operator precedence Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2014-02-25 00:38 +0100
                Re: Operator precedence Christoph Michael Becker <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2014-02-25 01:07 +0100
                Re: Operator precedence Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2014-02-25 01:37 +0100
                Re: Operator precedence Christoph Michael Becker <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2014-02-25 02:12 +0100
                Re: Operator precedence Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2014-02-25 03:29 +0100
                Re: Operator precedence Christoph Michael Becker <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2014-02-25 19:41 +0100
                Re: Operator precedence Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2014-02-25 19:55 +0100
                Re: Operator precedence Christoph Michael Becker <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2014-02-25 21:36 +0100
                Re: Operator precedence Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-02-25 03:08 +0000
                Re: Operator precedence Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2014-02-25 04:17 +0100
                Re: Operator precedence Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-02-25 04:45 +0000
                Re: Operator precedence GS <nomail@nospam.org.invalid> - 2014-02-25 21:45 +0000
            Re: Operator precedence Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2014-02-24 07:00 -0500
              Re: Operator precedence Christoph Michael Becker <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2014-02-24 18:11 +0100
                Re: Operator precedence Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2014-02-24 14:27 -0500
                Re: Operator precedence Christoph Michael Becker <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2014-02-25 01:25 +0100
                Re: Operator precedence Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2014-02-24 20:40 -0500
              Re: Operator precedence Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-02-24 21:23 +0000
                Re: Operator precedence Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2014-02-24 16:45 -0500
                Re: Operator precedence Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-02-25 04:32 +0000
                Re: Operator precedence Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2014-02-24 23:47 -0500
                Re: Operator precedence Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-02-25 16:56 +0000
                Re: Operator precedence Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2014-02-25 13:59 -0500
                Re: Operator precedence Christoph Michael Becker <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2014-02-25 20:19 +0100
                Re: Operator precedence Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2014-02-25 20:43 +0100
                Re: Operator precedence Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2014-02-25 16:02 -0500
                Re: Operator precedence Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2014-02-25 16:01 -0500
                Object constructors/destructors (was: Operator precedence) Christoph Michael Becker <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2014-02-25 22:19 +0100
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2014-02-25 16:32 -0500
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Christoph Michael Becker <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2014-02-25 22:55 +0100
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2014-02-25 17:01 -0500
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Adam Harvey <usenet@adamharvey.name> - 2014-02-25 23:22 +0000
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2014-02-25 21:10 -0500
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Christoph Michael Becker <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2014-02-26 21:10 +0100
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2014-02-26 16:01 -0500
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Christoph Michael Becker <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2014-02-26 22:59 +0100
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2014-02-26 17:19 -0500
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Christoph Michael Becker <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2014-02-26 23:39 +0100
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2014-02-26 22:30 -0500
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Christoph Michael Becker <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2014-02-27 18:28 +0100
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2014-02-27 16:09 -0500
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Christoph Michael Becker <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2014-02-28 14:52 +0100
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2014-02-28 09:08 -0500
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Christoph Michael Becker <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2014-02-28 16:52 +0100
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2014-02-28 11:03 -0500
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2014-02-27 01:00 +0100
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2014-02-26 22:39 -0500
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2014-02-27 18:29 +0100
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2014-02-27 16:14 -0500
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Christoph Michael Becker <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2014-02-26 00:18 +0100
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2014-02-25 21:08 -0500
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2014-02-26 07:50 -0500
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2014-02-26 08:44 -0500
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2014-02-26 23:49 -0500
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2014-02-27 08:25 -0500
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2014-03-01 12:56 -0500
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2014-03-01 14:22 -0500
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2014-03-02 14:28 -0500
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2014-03-02 15:42 -0500
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2014-03-02 17:14 -0500
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2014-03-02 17:48 -0500
                Re: Object constructors/destructors Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> - 2014-03-02 23:05 +0000
                Re: Operator precedence Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-02-25 21:08 +0000
                Re: Operator precedence Christoph Michael Becker <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2014-02-25 22:29 +0100
                Re: Operator precedence Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-02-25 23:15 +0000
              Re: Operator precedence Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2014-02-24 22:41 -0500
                Re: Operator precedence Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2014-02-24 23:59 -0500
                Re: Operator precedence Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2014-03-01 13:39 -0500
                Re: Operator precedence Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2014-03-01 14:29 -0500
                Re: Operator precedence Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2014-03-02 15:22 -0500
                Re: Operator precedence Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net> - 2014-03-02 15:49 -0500
                Re: Operator precedence Christoph Michael Becker <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2014-02-25 19:15 +0100
  Re: Operator precedence Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2014-02-23 20:56 +0000
    Re: Operator precedence Christoph Michael Becker <cmbecker69@arcor.de> - 2014-02-24 14:28 +0100

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