Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion

From	Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.devel
Subject	Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion
Date	2025-03-14 23:20 +0100
Message-ID	<KqlxM-66Mf-7@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
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On Wednesday, March 12, 2025 12:11:37 AM Mountain Standard Time Andrey 
Rakhmatullin wrote:

> >As has already been mentioned, nothing of substance has changed since Debian
> >held a GR on this issue.  However, if down the road open hardware with free
> >firmware became more widely available (I’m looking at you, RISC-V, although
> >I understand that the most likely short-term outcome is that companies will
> >produce non-free firmware for their RISC-V processors), then it might be
> >worth reopening the issue for consideration.
> That's just processors though, and processors usually contain their
> non-free firmware anyway. The original issue was about hardware that
> doesn't contain firmware but wants it loaded from the OS.

That’s a good point.  RISC-V isn’t only being used as main CPUs, but also for all types of 
other things that require firmware.  For example, Western Digital is spending effort to 
bring RISC-V to their storage controllers.

https://blog.westerndigital.com/risc-v-swerv-core-open-source/

The salient point is that the open hardware movement is just in its infancy and it is going 
to be a long time before there are common production machines that can run securely 
and well without the need to use and update proprietary firmware.

RISC-V has the potential to replace a lot of the current ARM micro controllers.  RISC-V uses 
a permissive license, somewhat akin to the Apache 2.0 License in the sense that anyone 
who builds upon it can decide if they want the outcome of their work to be open or closed.  
So, some RISC-V chips will ship with open hardware schematics and information and 
others won’t.  In addition, even if someone chooses to ship open hardware RISC-V, that 
doesn’t mean they will provide the source information for the corresponding firmware, so 
you could end up with a situation where there is an open hardware chip running non-free 
firmware.

But it is a beginning, and some day we will probably see wireless chips and ethernet chips 
and GPUs and TPMs and everything else shipping open hardware running open firmware.  
At that point, it will be easy to advocate for installers that match.

Of course, there is nothing preventing companies from adopting free and open firmware 
running on closed hardware.  That is the current situation for most if not all of the free 
firmware currently shipping in Debian.  But my personal opinion is that the free firmware 
movement won’t take off without the open hardware movement.

-- 
Soren Stoutner
soren@debian.org

Thread

  Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware  - A Call for Discussion Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-07 19:50 +0100
  Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> - 2025-03-08 20:10 +0100
    Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-08 21:10 +0100
      Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Aurélien COUDERC <libre@coucouf.fr> - 2025-03-08 22:10 +0100
        Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-08 23:20 +0100
          Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2025-03-09 00:50 +0100
      Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Matthias Urlichs <matthias@urlichs.de> - 2025-03-09 13:40 +0100
        Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-09 14:30 +0100
          Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Ansgar 🙀 <ansgar@debian.org> - 2025-03-09 15:10 +0100
            Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-09 16:00 +0100
              Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2025-03-09 16:50 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-09 17:00 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-09 17:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2025-03-09 23:10 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-10 11:00 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Ansgar 🙀 <ansgar@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 11:20 +0100
                Re: Salsa pipeline limit Peter B <peter@pblackman.plus.com> - 2025-03-10 15:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2025-03-10 16:10 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-10 09:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-10 12:00 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-10 12:30 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Aurélien COUDERC <libre@coucouf.fr> - 2025-03-10 18:00 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-11 16:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Jonathan McDowell <noodles@earth.li> - 2025-03-11 16:50 +0100
                  Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware  - A Call for Discussion Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-12 01:20 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-03-12 08:20 +0100
                  Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware  - A Call for Discussion Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> - 2025-03-14 23:20 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 19:40 +0100
              Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Ansgar 🙀 <ansgar@debian.org> - 2025-03-09 17:00 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-09 17:20 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Jeremy Stanley <fungi@yuggoth.org> - 2025-03-09 17:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-10 10:00 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 12:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 12:50 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2025-03-10 13:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Jonas Smedegaard <jonas@jones.dk> - 2025-03-10 14:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 13:40 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Andrey Rakhmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 15:50 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Bjørn Mork <bjorn@mork.no> - 2025-03-10 15:50 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 17:10 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Geert Stappers <stappers@stappers.nl> - 2025-03-10 18:50 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call  for Discussion Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> - 2025-03-11 09:10 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Ansgar 🙀 <ansgar@debian.org> - 2025-03-10 10:30 +0100
                Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion of  Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2025-03-10 12:50 +0100
        Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2025-03-09 16:00 +0100
    Re: Reconsidering Debian’s Inclusion  of Non-Free Firmware - A Call for Discussion "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> - 2025-03-08 21:20 +0100

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