Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin?

From	Eduard Bloch <edi@gmx.de>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.user
Subject	Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin?
Date	2023-04-03 23:30 +0200
Message-ID	<GgzUt-h9ve-5@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
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Hallo,
* Emanuel Berg [Mon, Apr 03 2023, 02:15:10AM]:

> > The reason Perl gives you more than one way to do anything
> > is this: I truly believe computer programmers want to be
> > creative, and they may have many different reasons for
> > wanting to write code a particular way. What you choose to
> > optimize for is your concern, not mine. I just supply the
> > paint—you paint the picture.
>
> I agree but I think maybe the success of Python, and its
> development speed, is actually because of some of that
> rigidness, yes, including the whitespace lack of freedom.

I don't think so, Sir! Python has certain advantages but the "meaningful
whitespace" is IMHO not one of them.

That said, I have been an active Perl user ~20y ago and for the last
couple of years slowly converting to Python for scripting purposes,
still using Perl here and there.

Therefore, my recent impressions and reflections:

Perl:
PRO:
- still excels on creating quick solutions in a one-liner for many
  purposes where string/text input/output and some generic algorithms
  count
- great cross-platform availability as long as you don't need CPAN, even
  part of Git-Bash and therefore an "obligatory" component
- IMHO clean lifecycle of variables. Means, you can set "strict" and
  then be sure that you manage your variables correctly, without much
  risk of strange runtime effects
- flexibility in statement writing (although making them sometimes
  looking strange and requiring more brackets than you initially wanted)
- a "friendly" API for users who just came from Bash or AWK scripting,
  many things would look familiar and need only minor adaption,
  especially when one knows "computer science" and understands what is
  going on underneath anyway
NEUTRAL:
- true threads are possible... the last time I tried that was great but
  unstable, but I think they have fixed it in a rewrite a while ago (not
  tried again for years, cannot tell for sure)
CONTRA:
- OOP is awkward, has always been, it just sucks
- still sucky when it comes to complex data structures
- ECO system unfortunately slowly fading away
- error handling (exceptions?)
- sometimes too rigid ways of method calling

Python3:
PRO:
- HUGE and modern ECO system, and mostly good&useful documentation
- Developers listening to user's wishes, recognizing and completing
  missing features and seeing modern developments
  (things like string interpolation with f-literals)
- flexible ways of method calling with default/optional/... parameters
- a certain level of rigidness keeps your code understandable even if
  you touch it a year later, and also for the code from your colleagues
- the uniform usage of certain infrastructure components (like argparse)
  became universal in the last few years
NEUTRAL:
- OOP is okay. Good or bad depending on whom you ask. Good because it
  allows for "wild west" OO design which still allows the interpreter to
  convert it into something useful in the end. Bad because this happens
  and runtime and because there are life-saving type checks and no real
  interfaces possible with Python.
CONTRA:
- OOP: ... one MUST keep writing "self." prefix all the time. What the
  heck, one of the reasons for refactoring to OO style is to have this
  shortened because the context prefers local objects.
- "meaningful whitespace" - whoever came up with that concept should maybe
  rethink it, and give people alternatives
- no (easy user-controllable) concept of references etc. which always
  feels like something causing memory waste
- performance SUCKS when it comes to actual computation (yes, there is
  Cython coming as alternative and replacement/completion but it has its
  own issues)
- awkward lifetime of variables (yes, they are not variables,
  just "assignments" AND YOU GONNA KNOW IT WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND REAL PYTHON,
  haha, I know, but still, it's a very unusual model, and unnatural /
  problematic to handle for developers who are used to scope driven languages)
- performance (again) of multi-threading... GIL sucks, making regular
  Python basically a single-threaded language (considering that
  performance gain is the main performance of MT)

So that were my few cents regarding the scripting languages. For a real
n00b nowadays, I would still recommend to learn Bash first. But always
keep in mind that "Bash programming" is a mix of executing commands in
the own language but mixing the result with the external forking of
other programs.

However, the lines between "scripting" and "real programming" languages
are blurry. If one is asking for the later, nowadays I would suggest
learning C# or Rust.

Eduard.

Thread

Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? coreyh@free.fr - 2023-04-02 11:00 +0200
  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-04-02 11:10 +0200
  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-02 11:30 +0200
    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2023-04-02 11:50 +0200
    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 00:20 +0200
    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Steve Sobol <steve@LobosStudios.com> - 2023-04-03 00:20 +0200
  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Nicholas Geovanis <nickgeovanis@gmail.com> - 2023-04-02 18:40 +0200
    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-04-02 18:40 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-02 19:20 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-04-02 20:50 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-02 21:00 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-02 21:20 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-02 21:30 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2023-04-03 00:00 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 00:10 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Steve Sobol <steve@LobosStudios.com> - 2023-04-03 01:10 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 04:30 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 05:50 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-04-03 06:50 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-04-03 06:50 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-04-03 06:40 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 11:30 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 15:00 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2023-04-02 21:20 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 02:00 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Ken Young <ken@highwinds.cloud> - 2023-04-03 02:30 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 01:40 +0200
    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-02 19:20 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2023-04-02 22:10 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-02 22:40 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2023-04-02 23:20 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-02 22:50 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 01:20 +0200
    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> - 2023-04-02 22:50 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Tom Browder <tom.browder@gmail.com> - 2023-04-02 23:10 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? coreyh@free.fr - 2023-04-03 06:30 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2023-04-03 06:50 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? coreyh@free.fr - 2023-04-03 07:00 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Stanislav Vlasov <stanislav.v.v@gmail.com> - 2023-04-03 08:50 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 09:30 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> - 2023-04-03 10:40 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Stanislav Vlasov <stanislav.v.v@gmail.com> - 2023-04-03 11:20 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> - 2023-04-03 13:00 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Vincent Lefevre <vincent@vinc17.net> - 2023-04-03 15:40 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Stanislav Vlasov <stanislav.v.v@gmail.com> - 2023-04-03 18:50 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Oliver Schoede <oliver.schode@online.de> - 2023-04-02 23:40 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 00:10 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 03:30 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2023-04-03 05:00 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 05:50 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2023-04-03 06:20 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-04 02:20 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? local10 <local10@tutanota.com> - 2023-04-04 05:40 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2023-04-04 15:50 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? local10 <local10@tutanota.com> - 2023-04-05 00:50 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@panix.com> - 2023-04-03 00:10 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 00:20 +0200
    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 01:20 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 02:20 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Eduard Bloch <edi@gmx.de> - 2023-04-03 23:30 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Joel Roth <joelz@pobox.com> - 2023-04-04 00:30 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 16:20 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 16:00 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2023-04-08 16:30 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2023-04-08 18:30 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 18:40 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 18:50 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2023-04-08 19:50 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? rhkramer@gmail.com - 2023-04-08 21:20 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 21:40 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> - 2023-04-09 05:40 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2023-04-04 04:00 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 16:20 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? davidson <davidson@freevolt.org> - 2023-04-08 16:50 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 17:10 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2023-04-11 04:20 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 16:30 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2023-04-05 04:10 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 16:50 +0200
  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-02 23:20 +0200
    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? ghe2001 <ghe2001@protonmail.com> - 2023-04-02 23:40 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-02 23:50 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> - 2023-04-03 00:10 +0200
    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-02 23:40 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 05:50 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 20:00 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 20:20 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> - 2023-04-03 20:50 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 15:20 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> - 2023-04-03 20:20 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2023-04-03 20:50 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> - 2023-04-03 21:00 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? davidson <davidson@freevolt.org> - 2023-04-08 05:50 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 15:40 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 22:00 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2023-04-03 22:10 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 22:30 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Michael <ml@hemathor.de> - 2023-04-05 12:00 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Michael <ml@hemathor.de> - 2023-04-05 12:00 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2023-04-05 12:10 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2023-04-05 13:30 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-04-05 13:40 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2023-04-05 14:00 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2023-04-05 14:20 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> - 2023-04-05 13:40 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2023-04-03 21:50 +0200
  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2023-04-03 05:10 +0200
  Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2023-04-03 18:40 +0200
    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Stanislav Vlasov <stanislav.v.v@gmail.com> - 2023-04-03 19:10 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Michel Verdier <mv524@free.fr> - 2023-04-03 19:40 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 19:50 +0200
    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2023-04-03 19:20 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 19:50 +0200
    Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-03 19:40 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? "Thomas Schmitt" <scdbackup@gmx.net> - 2023-04-03 20:30 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 15:10 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2023-04-08 15:20 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 15:30 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2023-04-09 00:20 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? conover@panix.com (John Conover) - 2023-04-09 05:00 +0200
      Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2023-04-04 15:40 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2023-04-04 15:50 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2023-04-04 16:40 +0200
            Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? debian-user@howorth.org.uk - 2023-04-04 19:40 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Greg Wooledge <greg@wooledge.org> - 2023-04-04 19:40 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? David Wright <deblis@lionunicorn.co.uk> - 2023-04-04 20:00 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Jeffrey Walton <noloader@gmail.com> - 2023-04-04 21:00 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 16:40 +0200
                Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 16:40 +0200
              Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 16:50 +0200
          Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 17:00 +0200
        Re: Is perl still the No.1 language for sysadmin? Emanuel Berg <incal@dataswamp.org> - 2023-04-08 17:10 +0200
    Computer anthropology and language wars [was: Is perl still the No.1  language for sysadmin?] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2023-04-03 19:50 +0200

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