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Re: Multi-package projects

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Wouter Verhelst:
> On Sat, Oct 08, 2022 at 08:06:33AM +0200, Niels Thykier wrote:
> [...]
> 
> OK, thanks. This was the reason why I added that disclaimer at the top
> of my previous email; if the release team doesn't want to do the work
> (which would be completely reasonable!) then obviously we'd have to
> create a new team.
> 

Indeed - I noted that. :)  My answer to Sam's email was due how it went 
into details with why Sam saw the RT as a good candidate team for this 
role and I wanted to present a counterargument to Sam's email.

>> Additionally, as an x-RT member that was present when release goals was
>> axed. One of the reasons, why I supported axing release goals was that it
>> was a lot of coordination and tracking on the RT side while the people
>> proposing the goals often went "Sounds like you got this now, kthxbye" one
>> the goal was accepted.
> 
> Yeah, that's not helpful. I think the requirement of the team to
> actually do the work in my proposal (and the project even being rejected
> at the end of the release cycle if they don't do the work) should help
> in remedying that, though? Or do you have a different perspective?
> 

The original release goals proposal already had as requirement that 
someone else was tracking the goal. Not sure whether we were explicit 
enough with it back then and the proposal here might be better at this.

However, even if it is more explicit, we continuously see conflict 
between people saying they are volunteering/doing a task and another 
side feeling these people are not doing "enough".  This was the case 
between the "advocates" in release goals and me on the release team back 
in the day.  It is every release between porters and one of the many 
stakeholders in architecture qualification.

This has a tendency of becoming very subjective - and subjective 
measurements tend to escalate conflicts in the cases where one side 
disagree with the measurement.

This is one of the arguments for having "SMART" release goals (with the 
"M" being "Measurable") back in the day.  It still did not work that 
well because volunteer effort is hard to measure objectively.  And this 
problem is very likely to show up for this proposal as well.

>> Obviously, there are some differences between this proposal and the old
>> release goals - but at the end of the day, I still feel this is dropping a
>> lot of extra work on the RT so people can use them as meatshields in their
>> debate. To me that is an excellent way of burning out the Release Team and
>> therefore I advice against it.
> 
> Right, so it's not a job for the release team then. Makes sense.
> 
 > [...]

At the end of the day, I think the release team should answer themselves 
whether they want to accept it - I do not and should not speak on their 
behalf.  However, looking at this from the release team point of view, I 
cannot see a single reason why they would want this extra 
responsibility. Accordingly, I would expect them to say "No thank you" 
and I recommend people not building this proposal around the RT taking 
this role (or at least have a contingency plan for the RT saying "No 
thank you").

Thanks,
~Niels

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Multi-package projects Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2022-10-07 13:50 +0200
  Re: Multi-package projects Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-10-07 14:20 +0200
  Re: Multi-package projects Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2022-10-07 14:30 +0200
    Re: Multi-package projects Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2022-10-07 15:00 +0200
      Re: Multi-package projects Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2022-10-07 20:40 +0200
    Re: Multi-package projects Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2022-10-07 20:10 +0200
      Re: Multi-package projects Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2022-10-07 21:20 +0200
        Re: Multi-package projects Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2022-10-08 12:20 +0200
  Re: Multi-package projects Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2022-10-07 19:00 +0200
    Re: Multi-package projects Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2022-10-07 19:50 +0200
      Re: Multi-package projects Niels Thykier <niels@thykier.net> - 2022-10-08 09:10 +0200
        Re: Multi-package projects Niels Thykier <niels@thykier.net> - 2022-10-08 12:20 +0200
          Re: Multi-package projects Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2022-10-13 17:50 +0200
            Re: Multi-package projects Niels Thykier <niels@thykier.net> - 2022-10-13 18:30 +0200
        Re: Multi-package projects Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2022-10-08 12:20 +0200
    Re: Multi-package projects Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2022-10-07 20:00 +0200
  Re: Multi-package projects Niels Thykier <niels@thykier.net> - 2022-10-08 09:10 +0200

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