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Groups > comp.os.linux.advocacy > #350697
| From | Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.os.linux.advocacy |
| Subject | Re: Appil sales plummet 30% |
| Date | 2016-04-18 10:58 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <D33A6E4F.7040C%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> (permalink) |
| References | (12 earlier) <D3398FF6.702D2%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> <gyuef.jig98sa@rooftop.invalid> <nf2k0k$137$1@dont-email.me> <D33A5F1B.703E3%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> <nf35uh$6ec$2@dont-email.me> |
On 4/18/16, 10:39 AM, in article nf35uh$6ec$2@dont-email.me, "Silver Slimer"
<peter@klown.is> wrote:
...
>>> It's worse than that. A $15 minimum wage simply means that business
>>> owners will be encouraged to replace their workers with automatons which
>>> end up costing them less in the long run.
>>
>> While I can see arguing where the min. wage should be, and even see that $15
>> can be considered high, the argument that if we stop socializing the cost of
>> labor for corporations they will make things worse for people is a very bad
>> reason to not insist they cover the full cost of their labor.
>>
>> If they want to buy labor THEY should pay for it.
>
> And they do... by moving their operating to another country where it
> costs them less.
And their should be consequences to that, too.
Sanders is pushing to stop socializing their labor costs *and* to move the
minimum wage up to $15... which even I say seems a bit high to me (means a
family with two working adults is making $60K / year at a *minimum*).
But even with that, many economist think his plan would be a huge boon to
the economy.
<http://cnnmon.ie/1SEimUC>
-----
Under Sanders, income and jobs would soar, economist says
Median income would soar by more than $22,000. Nearly 26 million
jobs would be created. The unemployment rate would fall to 3.8%.
-----
Now I realize there are other economists who do not paint as rosy of a
picture - but the idea it is somehow a given that his plans would be bad for
the economy is silly.
And, really, it comes down to common sense for me. I think most would agree
with these facts / ideas:
1) The wealthy tend to not spend much of their money
2) The poor and middle class have relatively little savings
3) A strong tie between productivity and reward is good for the economy
Right now the tie in #3 is weakening. Raising the minimum wage helps reduce
that problem. It also helps to get more money into the wage / wealth earners
and that gets the economy going. When you have more people looking to buy
TVs and cars and food and clothing and widgets and services in general, then
there is going to be more demand. Companies will do more business. Yes,
their labor costs will go up (though really not that much, and if they
balance paying those that do the front line work with reducing the cost of
their executives to what they have historically been maybe not at all).
In the end they make MORE money.
The idea that they cannot afford to pay their workers what they earn (or
closer to it) - and thus need socialized support for their labor AS their
profits go up AND they pay their top executives MASSIVELY more than they
have in the past just does not make sense.
>>> Why would you need a pimply-faced teenager with an attitude problem at a
>>> counter when you can easily get the equivalent of an ATM to do his job. I
>>> mean, it's not like you need the kid's expert advice. McDonald's, for
>>> instance, is already doing this because it knows that its customers will
>>> order a hamburger or a Big Mac in its default state.
>>>
>> Where are they doing this? I saw a story on it claiming to show where they
>> did it because of the min. wage but it turned out they did so in a place
>> completely other than where the image said.
>
> I can't tell you exactly because I don't recall.
Fair enough. Perhaps the story referenced here:
<http://www.snopes.com/mcdonalds-kiosks-minimum-wage/>
-----
McDonald's kiosks have been in development globally since 2011,
well before movements to raise the minimum wage to $15 per hour
had galvanized in the U.S. McDonald's has always cited food
customization issues (not automation) as its goal in adding kiosks
in test markets. Finally, no evidence has been presented by anyone
spreading the rumor to prove kiosks represent any overall cost
savings to fast food restaurants (as they must be purchased,
programmed, maintained, partially manned, and otherwise are
themselves a cost of doing business). While it's true McDonald's
has been testing kiosks for self-serve ordering since 2011, it is
false that the chain has done so specifically or primarily in
response to minimum wage increases.
-----
>>> People won't ask to remove the pickles or hold the mustard so the company
>>> can place a screen in front of the customer and it will take the order the
>>> same way that an automaton will make the burger (perfectly) for him. Not
>>> only is it faster and more convenient but also less expensive.
>>>
>>> So yeah, go ahead with the $15 minimum wage and watch your citizens become
>>> homeless.
>>
>> Those who claim this have the hard job of explaining why:
>> * This has not been seen in the past
>> * Why we should continue to socialize the cost of labor
>>
>> I do not back that form of socialism.
>>
>> <https://www.dol.gov/featured/minimum-wage/mythbuster>
>> -----
>> Myth: Increasing the minimum wage will cause people to lose their
>> jobs.
>>
>> Not true: In a letter to President Obama and congressional leaders
>> urging a minimum wage increase, more than 600 economists,
>> including 7 Nobel Prize winners wrote, "In recent years there have
>> been important developments in the academic literature on the
>> effect of increases in the minimum wage on employment, with the
>> weight of evidence now showing that increases in the minimum wage
>> have had little or no negative effect on the employment of
>> minimum-wage workers, even during times of weakness in the labor
>> market. Research suggests that a minimum-wage increase could have
>> a small stimulative effect on the economy as low-wage workers
>> spend their additional earnings, raising demand and job growth,
>> and providing some help on the jobs front."
>> -----
>>
>> I tend to find that more convincing than those who insist we have to keep
>> socializing the cost of labor.
>
> I trust what the government says on the matter of "minimum wage" about
> as much as I do Crackhead Tyrone's stories of how the government is out
> to get him.
This is not just the government but hundreds of economists. I do realize
there are some who disagree... but overall the idea it would harm the
economy is not something that has been seen much in the past and for which
there is not much support for.
With that said, I think if you push it to absurd levels then there are true
risks... say $100/hour. That would be insane. Is $15 too high? Perhaps but I
think with the give and take in the law-making process it is not going to be
that high to start off with anyway. And even Sanders says to gradually move
it up to that... over "the next several years."
--
* OS X / Linux: What is a file? <http://youtu.be/_dMbXGLW9PI>
* Mint MATE Trash, Panel, Menu: <http://youtu.be/C0y74FIf7uE>
* Mint KDE working with folders: <http://youtu.be/7C9nvniOoE0>
* Mint KDE creating files: <http://youtu.be/N7-fZJaJUv8>
* Mint KDE help: <http://youtu.be/3ikizUd3sa8>
* Mint KDE general navigation: <http://youtu.be/t9y14yZtQuI>
* Mint KDE bugs or Easter eggs? <http://youtu.be/CU-whJQvtfA>
* Easy on OS X / Hard on Linux: <http://youtu.be/D3BPWANQoIk>
* OS / Word Processor Comparison: <http://youtu.be/w6Qcl-w7s5c>
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Appil sales plummet 30% 7 <7@enemygadgets.com> - 2016-04-16 16:34 +0000
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Me Sham <osirus47@yahoo.com> - 2016-04-16 09:38 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% 7 <7@enemygadgets.com> - 2016-04-16 16:47 +0000
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Silver Slimer <ahlstrom's_manhood@void.ca> - 2016-04-16 13:45 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% William Poaster <wp@dev.null> - 2016-04-16 22:05 +0100
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Desk Rabbit <me@example.com> - 2016-04-18 11:17 +0100
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-16 10:20 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% 7 <7@enemygadgets.com> - 2016-04-16 17:36 +0000
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-16 10:38 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-16 10:47 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% 7 <7@enemygadgets.com> - 2016-04-16 18:02 +0000
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-16 11:14 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% 7 <7@enemygadgets.com> - 2016-04-16 18:26 +0000
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-16 11:45 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Me Sham <osirus47@yahoo.com> - 2016-04-16 11:49 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% 7 <7@enemygadgets.com> - 2016-04-16 22:02 +0000
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-16 14:09 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% 7 <7@enemygadgets.com> - 2016-04-16 22:31 +0000
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-16 14:42 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% 7 <7@enemygadgets.com> - 2016-04-16 23:11 +0000
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-16 16:19 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% 7 <7@enemygadgets.com> - 2016-04-16 23:27 +0000
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-16 16:33 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-16 19:29 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Desk Rabbit <me@example.com> - 2016-04-18 16:23 +0100
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-16 16:06 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-16 18:24 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-16 11:16 -0700
Re: Please, don't expect them to be able to read (or Google). "Sir Gregory Hall, Esq." <greghall@yacht_master.fake> - 2016-04-16 17:08 -0400
Re: Please, don't expect them to be able to read (or Google). Rick Sabian's Allstar Canadian Assworm Zydeco Band <Lunatic.Fringe@The.Edge> - 2016-04-16 20:00 -0700
Re: Please, don't expect them to be able to read (or Google). Nadegda <nad318b404@gmail.invalid> - 2016-04-19 20:00 +0000
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Silver Slimer <ahlstrom's_manhood@void.ca> - 2016-04-16 15:02 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-16 12:59 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-16 16:03 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Silver Slimer <ahlstrom's_manhood@void.ca> - 2016-04-17 09:40 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-17 10:53 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Silver Slimer <peter@klown.is> - 2016-04-17 17:00 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-17 14:25 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-17 21:50 +0000
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-17 15:47 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Me Sham <osirus47@yahoo.com> - 2016-04-17 16:31 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-18 00:01 +0000
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-17 17:22 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-18 00:40 +0000
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-17 17:54 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-18 01:46 +0000
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-17 19:13 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-18 02:39 +0000
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-17 19:50 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-18 03:09 +0000
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-17 20:26 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Silver Slimer <peter@klown.is> - 2016-04-18 08:41 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-18 09:40 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Silver Slimer <peter@klown.is> - 2016-04-18 13:31 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-18 11:08 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 11:21 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Silver Slimer <peter@klown.is> - 2016-04-18 08:39 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-18 09:46 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Silver Slimer <peter@klown.is> - 2016-04-18 13:36 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-18 11:07 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-17 17:27 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-18 00:50 +0000
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-17 18:08 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-18 01:51 +0000
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-17 19:09 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-04-18 04:22 +0200
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-17 19:47 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-04-18 04:58 +0200
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-17 20:22 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-04-18 05:26 +0200
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-17 20:43 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-04-18 05:50 +0200
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-17 21:27 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-18 02:24 +0000
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-04-18 04:34 +0200
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-18 02:45 +0000
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-04-18 04:49 +0200
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-17 20:30 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-04-18 05:35 +0200
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-17 20:47 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2016-04-18 05:55 +0200
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-17 21:26 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-20 10:21 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-17 22:38 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-18 02:46 +0000
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-20 11:42 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-17 19:39 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-18 02:55 +0000
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-17 20:20 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-18 03:50 +0000
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-17 21:29 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Silver Slimer <peter@klown.is> - 2016-04-18 08:33 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-18 09:53 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 10:14 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 10:27 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Silver Slimer <peter@klown.is> - 2016-04-18 13:39 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-18 10:58 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 11:12 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Silver Slimer <peter@klown.is> - 2016-04-18 14:27 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-18 11:55 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Silver Slimer <peter@klown.is> - 2016-04-18 18:39 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-18 16:53 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Silver Slimer <peter@klown.is> - 2016-04-19 08:38 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-19 09:31 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 09:36 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 09:34 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Silver Slimer <peter@klown.is> - 2016-04-19 12:52 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 09:56 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-20 14:14 -0700
Re: Am I poorer if you're richer ? No, _relative_ wealth doesn't matter. benj <nobodyxx@gmail> - 2016-04-18 01:55 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 18:28 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% owl <owl@rooftop.invalid> - 2016-04-18 01:53 +0000
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-17 19:07 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Silver Slimer <peter@klown.is> - 2016-04-18 08:25 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-18 12:15 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Silver Slimer <peter@klown.is> - 2016-04-18 18:45 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-18 16:59 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Silver Slimer <peter@klown.is> - 2016-04-19 08:44 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-19 09:18 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Steve Carroll <fretwizzer@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 08:44 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Silver Slimer <ahlstrom's_manhood@void.ca> - 2016-04-17 09:27 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-17 07:19 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-04-17 12:03 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-17 09:12 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2016-04-17 14:00 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-17 14:53 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% 7 <7@enemygadgets.com> - 2016-04-17 20:07 +0000
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-17 19:56 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Silver Slimer <peter@klown.is> - 2016-04-18 08:28 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% DFS <nospam@dfs.com> - 2016-04-17 12:57 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Silver Slimer <peter@klown.is> - 2016-04-17 13:14 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> - 2016-04-18 08:59 -0500
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Silver Slimer <peter@klown.is> - 2016-04-18 10:37 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Silver Slimer <peter@klown.is> - 2016-04-17 13:06 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-17 10:29 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Silver Slimer <peter@klown.is> - 2016-04-17 16:57 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-17 10:51 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> - 2016-04-17 10:59 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Silver Slimer <ahlstrom's_manhood@void.ca> - 2016-04-16 13:47 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-16 10:58 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% 7 <7@enemygadgets.com> - 2016-04-16 18:16 +0000
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Marek Novotny <marek.novotny@marspolar.com> - 2016-04-16 11:31 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Alan Baker <alangbaker@telus.net> - 2016-04-16 11:43 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Me Sham <osirus47@yahoo.com> - 2016-04-16 11:52 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Silver Slimer <ahlstrom's_manhood@void.ca> - 2016-04-16 15:00 -0400
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Steve Carroll <fretwizzen@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 22:26 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Desk Rabbit <me@example.com> - 2016-04-18 09:42 +0100
Re: Countless SMALL vendors write to the Microsoft Standard. Steve Carroll <fretwizzen@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 22:26 -0700
Re: Appil sales plummet 30% Steve Carroll <fretwizzen@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 22:26 -0700
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