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Groups > linux.debian.devel > #101375

Re: Debhelper and /lib/systemd vs /usr/lib/systemd

From Niels Thykier <niels@thykier.net>
Newsgroups linux.debian.devel
Subject Re: Debhelper and /lib/systemd vs /usr/lib/systemd
Date 2021-08-25 20:40 +0200
Message-ID <CQ5YC-51J-17@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References (15 earlier) <CPiuR-7Cm-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <CPk3E-c4-13@gated-at.bofh.it> <CPoqB-2XP-3@gated-at.bofh.it> <CPp3j-3aW-1@gated-at.bofh.it> <CPry9-4LI-1@gated-at.bofh.it>
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Sam Hartman:
> 
> TL;DR: Should we hold off on moving stuff from / to /usr in packages
> until we develop our plan?
> If so, how do we communicate that to people?
> 
>>>>>> "Russ" == Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> writes:
> 
>     Russ> Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> writes:
>     >> It is less nonsensical because usrmerge exists, since we
>     >> presumably don't want to keep the /bin paths in the packages, so
>     >> at some point we need to move /bin/foo to /usr/bin/foo inside a
>     >> package.  That is safe with current dpkg, as dpkg will not delete
>     >> /bin/foo if it has the same inode as a just-unpacked file.
> 
>     Russ> [...]
> 
>     Russ> I think this implies that writing something in Policy about
>     Russ> this would be premature.  The issues you raise are related to
>     Russ> something new that is being discussed and would be part of a
>     Russ> migration plan to a merged /usr world.
> 
> Russ, I agree with you that it's premature to document this in policy.
> 
> However, Simon has raised what I think is a credible argument that it
> is harmful to perform both / -> /usr transitions and to move files
> between packages in the same release.
> My take away from that is that it may be harmful to move a bunch of
> stuff from / -> /usr until we have a plan, and that maintainers should
> actively be discouraged from doing so.
> 
> I think we should get people to hold off at least until we have a
> consensus on that point.
> 
> And this is by no means theoretical.
> 
> As was discussed here, recent debhelper (has or at least had) changed
> from installing systemd units in /lib/systemd/system to
> /usr/lib/systemd/system.
> 
> That is totally fine interms of  usermerged stuff, but sets up a
> potential problem .
> 
> Suppose we have a program foo that ships a daemon and also a systemd
> unit to run it.
> 
> Later we discover that foo is kind of useful in desktop situations and
> other situations where it wants to be started as needed  and possibly
> not even by systemd.
> So, we want to split out the foo package into foo containing the daemon
> binary and foo-system (recommended by foo) containing the systemd unit.
> 
> The maintainer may not even be thinking about how debhelper moved around
> the unit file.
> 
> foo-system  replaces/breaks the old version of foo.
> 
> I think the following series of operations would result in the unit file
> disappearing on a usermerged system:
> 
> * user has  old foo with /lib/systemd/system/foo.service
> 

As I understand it, the issue does not depend on whether "usrmerge" is
run before or after installing the "/lib" version of "foo".  On that
assumption, running "usrmerge" as a part of the upgrade and "cleaning
up" in bookworm+1 is liable to exactly the same risk as before.

Which means that we are likely "just" debating on when we want to risk
to occur. The difference for me being that people would forgot about
this issue in bookworm+1 and assume that migration is over with no risk
left.

On that front, I prefer to take my chances with breaking bookworm while
it is fresh in our minds rather than breaking bookworm+1 when every body
forgot about it.

That said ...

> * user attempts to upgrade and installs foo-system as part of upgrade
> 
> * foo is deconfigured because of the breaks on foo-system
> 
> * foo-system is unpacked, including
>   /usr/lib/systemd/system/foo.service.  On the usrmerged system, that
>   overwrites the existing foo.service since dpkg doesn't know about the
>   aliasing
> 
> * foo is upgraded.  From dpkg's standpoint it looks like
>   /lib/systemd/system/foo.service disappeared, but since the file still
>   exists it is removed.
> 
> So the user ends up with no unit.
> 
> I think this is particular insidious because the maintainer might not
> even know that they had moved files from / to /usr, or if they knew they
> might have not been paying enough attention to provide special care.
> 
> Do people agree that we want to hold off on this sort of thing until we
> get a plan?
> 

This strongly depends on:

 * Who volunteered to be the "we" that provide this plan?
 * When is "until" we have a defined plan?

For concrete values of those definitions, I can be convinced to stop
further changes and rollback the systemd / -> /usr change.  However, as
long as these definitions are variations of "somebody" or "everyone" or
"the project" and "eventually" or "when it is ready", then I am not
convinced that waiting is the right option.

For now, I will hold on further "/ -> /usr" changes in debhelper, but I
am not convinced that I should actively rollback the changes already made.

Thanks,
~Niels

PS: Guesstimates suggests that there 16.5 months until the transition
freeze assuming the release team keeps the current cadence.

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Thread

merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Thorsten Glaser <tg@debian.org> - 2021-07-14 22:10 +0200
  Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2021-07-14 23:50 +0200
    Re: merged /usr considered harmful Thorsten Glaser <tg@debian.org> - 2021-07-15 05:20 +0200
      Re: merged /usr considered harmful Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org> - 2021-07-16 10:00 +0200
      Re: merged /usr considered harmful Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2021-07-16 13:10 +0200
    Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> - 2021-07-15 09:10 +0200
      Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2021-07-15 10:00 +0200
        Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical Committee) Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2021-07-15 10:50 +0200
          Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2021-07-15 11:40 +0200
          Re: merged /usr considered harmful Thorsten Glaser <tg@debian.org> - 2021-07-16 04:00 +0200
            Re: merged /usr considered harmful Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2021-07-16 09:20 +0200
              Re: merged /usr considered harmful The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-07-16 10:40 +0200
            endless discussion considered harmful Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2021-07-16 12:40 +0200
        Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> - 2021-07-15 20:10 +0200
    Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-07-15 11:20 +0200
      Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Magissia <debianlist@magissia.com> - 2021-07-16 13:50 +0200
        Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Helmut Grohne <helmut@subdivi.de> - 2021-07-18 23:00 +0200
      Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2021-07-19 03:40 +0200
        Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical Committee) Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2021-07-19 07:20 +0200
          Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Gunnar Wolf <gwolf@debian.org> - 2021-07-19 08:40 +0200
          Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Gunnar Wolf <gwolf@debian.org> - 2021-07-19 09:00 +0200
        Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical Committee) Stephan Lachnit <stephanlachnit@debian.org> - 2021-07-19 11:40 +0200
          Re: merged /usr Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-07-19 13:00 +0200
        Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Michael Biebl <biebl@debian.org> - 2021-07-19 15:30 +0200
          Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical Committee) Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues <josch@debian.org> - 2021-07-19 16:50 +0200
            Re: merged /usr Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-07-19 19:50 +0200
            Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Niels Thykier <niels@thykier.net> - 2021-07-20 08:20 +0200
            Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2021-07-20 11:40 +0200
              Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2021-07-20 12:30 +0200
              Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Andreas Metzler <ametzler@bebt.de> - 2021-07-20 14:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Svante Signell <svante.signell@gmail.com> - 2021-07-20 14:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-20 21:40 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Svante Signell <svante.signell@gmail.com> - 2021-07-20 23:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2021-07-21 00:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Svante Signell <svante.signell@gmail.com> - 2021-07-21 00:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2021-07-21 00:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-21 03:20 +0200
                Re: not actually anything to do with merged-/usr any more Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-07-21 10:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-21 03:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-21 03:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Brian Thompson <brian@hashvault.io> - 2021-07-21 04:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-21 04:40 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical Committee) Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2021-07-21 08:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical Committee) Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2021-07-20 21:40 +0200
                a little productivity on the side (was Re: merged /usr considered  harmful) Thorsten Glaser <tg@debian.org> - 2021-07-22 04:00 +0200
          Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2021-07-20 11:20 +0200
          Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2021-07-22 16:00 +0200
            Re: merged /usr Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-07-22 16:30 +0200
              Re: merged /usr Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2021-07-27 12:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Andreas Metzler <ametzler@bebt.de> - 2021-07-27 14:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2021-07-27 15:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2021-07-27 16:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2021-07-27 17:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2021-07-27 17:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Steve Cotton <steve@octalot.at> - 2021-07-28 02:40 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Andreas Metzler <ametzler@bebt.de> - 2021-07-27 17:40 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2021-07-27 14:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-07-27 16:40 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2021-07-27 17:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Calum McConnell <calumlikesapplepie@gmail.com> - 2021-07-27 19:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-07-28 16:40 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2021-08-13 02:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2021-08-13 08:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2021-08-13 11:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2021-08-13 17:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-13 11:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2021-08-14 14:40 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-14 15:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2021-08-14 16:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-08-14 15:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2021-08-14 17:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-08-15 01:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2021-08-15 12:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-08-15 19:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2021-08-16 01:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2021-08-16 11:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-16 14:40 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2021-08-16 15:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2021-08-17 12:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-17 12:30 +0200
                A summary of where I think we are on the technical side of the  merged /usr discussion Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2021-08-17 16:10 +0200
                Re: A summary of where I think we are on the technical side of the  merged /usr discussion Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-08-17 18:20 +0200
                Re: A summary of where I think we are on the technical side of the  merged /usr discussion "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2021-08-17 19:00 +0200
                Re: A summary of where I think we are on the technical side of the  merged /usr discussion Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-08-17 20:10 +0200
                Re: A summary of where I think we are on the technical side of the  merged /usr discussion Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-08-17 21:20 +0200
                Re: A summary of where I think we are on the technical side of the  merged /usr discussion Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-18 00:30 +0200
                Re: A summary of where I think we are on the technical side of the  merged /usr discussion Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-08-18 10:50 +0200
                Re: A summary of where I think we are on the technical side of the  merged /usr discussion Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-18 11:50 +0200
                Re: A summary of where I think we are on the technical side of the  merged /usr discussion "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2021-08-18 05:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-08-18 11:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2021-08-18 18:40 +0200
                Re: A summary of where I think we are on the technical side of the  merged /usr discussion Helmut Grohne <helmut@subdivi.de> - 2021-08-19 10:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-08-19 12:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2021-08-19 16:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-08-19 22:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2021-08-20 02:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Craig Small <csmall@debian.org> - 2021-08-20 02:40 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-20 12:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2021-08-20 15:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2021-08-21 10:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-21 15:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2021-08-21 16:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-21 19:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> - 2021-08-21 21:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-22 12:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2021-08-21 23:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-22 12:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Steve Cotton <steve@octalot.at> - 2021-08-22 13:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-22 23:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2021-11-12 05:00 +0100
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-11-12 12:00 +0100
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-08-22 02:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2021-08-22 05:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-22 12:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2021-08-22 16:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-22 23:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2021-08-23 04:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-23 15:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2021-08-23 17:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-08-23 22:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2021-08-23 22:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2021-08-23 23:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2021-08-23 23:30 +0200
                Debhelper and /lib/systemd vs /usr/lib/systemd Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2021-08-24 01:30 +0200
                Re: Debhelper and /lib/systemd vs /usr/lib/systemd Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2021-08-24 02:00 +0200
                Re: Debhelper and /lib/systemd vs /usr/lib/systemd Niels Thykier <niels@thykier.net> - 2021-08-25 20:40 +0200
                Re: Debhelper and /lib/systemd vs /usr/lib/systemd Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2021-08-25 22:10 +0200
                Re: Debhelper and /lib/systemd vs /usr/lib/systemd Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-08-25 23:10 +0200
                Re: Debhelper and /lib/systemd vs /usr/lib/systemd Niels Thykier <niels@thykier.net> - 2021-08-25 23:30 +0200
                Re: Debhelper and /lib/systemd vs /usr/lib/systemd Andreas Metzler <ametzler@bebt.de> - 2021-08-26 19:40 +0200
                Re: Debhelper and /lib/systemd vs /usr/lib/systemd Niels Thykier <niels@thykier.net> - 2021-08-25 23:20 +0200
                Re: Debhelper and /lib/systemd vs /usr/lib/systemd Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2021-08-26 18:00 +0200
                Re: Debhelper and /lib/systemd vs /usr/lib/systemd Niels Thykier <niels@thykier.net> - 2021-08-26 19:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2021-08-25 18:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2021-08-25 19:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2021-08-25 20:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2021-08-25 22:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2021-08-25 21:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-08-25 22:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2021-08-25 22:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-08-22 17:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-08-22 21:10 +0200
                Making the dpkg database correspond with reality (Was Re: merged  /usr vs. symlink farms) "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2021-08-24 02:50 +0200
                Re: Making the dpkg database correspond with reality (Was Re: merged  /usr vs. symlink farms) Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2021-08-24 08:50 +0200
                Re: Making the dpkg database correspond with reality (Was Re: merged  /usr vs. symlink farms) Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-08-24 12:00 +0200
                Re: Making the dpkg database correspond with reality (Was Re: merged  /usr vs. symlink farms) "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2021-08-24 16:50 +0200
                Re: Making the dpkg database correspond with reality (Was Re: merged  /usr vs. symlink farms) Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-08-24 20:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2021-08-23 16:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2021-08-22 12:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2021-08-21 18:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2021-08-22 12:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2021-08-23 01:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2021-08-23 02:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2021-08-20 16:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2021-08-20 20:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-08-20 23:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-21 15:40 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Sam Hartman <hartmans@suchdamage.org> - 2021-08-23 16:40 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Aurelien Jarno <aurelien@aurel32.net> - 2021-08-25 21:40 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Danilo Santos <santosdanilo2013@gmail.com> - 2021-08-26 08:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2021-08-22 00:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Andreas Metzler <ametzler@bebt.de> - 2021-08-22 09:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2021-08-26 03:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2021-08-26 09:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-08-26 12:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-26 13:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2021-08-26 14:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-26 14:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-08-26 15:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2021-08-26 15:40 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2021-08-26 17:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2021-08-26 17:40 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Andreas Metzler <ametzler@bebt.de> - 2021-08-26 19:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-26 16:00 +0200
                next steps after usrunmess Phil Morrell <debian@emorrp1.name> - 2021-08-27 04:50 +0200
                Re: next steps after usrunmess "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2021-08-27 17:30 +0200
                Re: next steps after usrunmess Bastien ROUCARIES <roucaries.bastien@gmail.com> - 2021-08-27 20:00 +0200
                Re: next steps after usrmerge "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2021-08-27 20:10 +0200
                Re: next steps after usrunmess Phil Morrell <debian@emorrp1.name> - 2021-08-27 20:40 +0200
                Re: next steps after usrunmess Bastien ROUCARIES <roucaries.bastien@gmail.com> - 2021-08-27 21:40 +0200
                Re: next steps after usrunmess Richard Laager <rlaager@debian.org> - 2021-08-27 21:20 +0200
                Re: merged-/usr vs. partially-symlink-farmed-root Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2021-08-22 11:10 +0200
                Re: merged-/usr vs. partially-symlink-farmed-root Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-22 12:30 +0200
                Re: merged-/usr vs. partially-symlink-farmed-root Marvin Renich <mrvn@renich.org> - 2021-08-22 18:40 +0200
                Re: merged-/usr vs. partially-symlink-farmed-root Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-08-22 19:00 +0200
                Re: merged-/usr vs. partially-symlink-farmed-root Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-22 23:30 +0200
                Re: merged-/usr vs. partially-symlink-farmed-root "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2021-08-23 00:20 +0200
                Re: merged-/usr vs. partially-symlink-farmed-root Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2021-08-22 23:30 +0200
                Re: merged-/usr vs. partially-symlink-farmed-root Marvin Renich <mrvn@renich.org> - 2021-08-23 16:40 +0200
                Re: merged-/usr vs. partially-symlink-farmed-root Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2021-08-23 17:20 +0200
                Re: merged-/usr vs. partially-symlink-farmed-root Marvin Renich <mrvn@renich.org> - 2021-08-23 18:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Tomas Pospisek <tpo2@sourcepole.ch> - 2021-08-22 21:30 +0200
                Re: testing for rootfs vs. /usr reproducibility regressions Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-08-19 12:50 +0200
                Re: testing for rootfs vs. /usr reproducibility regressions Helmut Grohne <helmut@subdivi.de> - 2021-08-20 10:20 +0200
                Re: testing for rootfs vs. /usr reproducibility regressions Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-08-20 12:40 +0200
                Re: testing for rootfs vs. /usr reproducibility regressions Timothy M Butterworth <timothy.m.butterworth@gmail.com> - 2021-08-20 23:40 +0200
                Re: testing for rootfs vs. /usr reproducibility regressions Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2021-08-21 19:30 +0200
                Re: testing for rootfs vs. /usr reproducibility regressions Timothy M Butterworth <timothy.m.butterworth@gmail.com> - 2021-08-21 22:20 +0200
                Re: A summary of where I think we are on the technical side of the  merged /usr discussion Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-18 00:10 +0200
                Re: A summary of where I think we are on the technical side of the  merged /usr discussion Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2021-08-18 07:00 +0200
                Re: A summary of where I think we are on the technical side of the  merged /usr discussion Tim Woodall <debiandevel@woodall.me.uk> - 2021-08-18 18:20 +0200
                Changing how you do things: Was Re: merged /usr Tim Woodall <debiandevel@woodall.me.uk> - 2021-08-18 09:50 +0200
                Re: Changing how you do things: Was Re: merged /usr David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2021-08-18 15:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2021-08-16 11:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2021-08-17 11:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Vagrant Cascadian <vagrant@reproducible-builds.org> - 2021-08-17 18:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-08-17 19:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2021-08-17 19:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2021-08-16 16:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2021-08-16 16:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2021-08-16 16:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2021-08-16 17:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2021-08-17 19:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2021-08-16 23:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2021-07-27 17:10 +0200
    Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Svante Signell <svante.signell@gmail.com> - 2021-07-18 21:00 +0200
      Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-18 23:50 +0200
      Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-19 00:00 +0200
        Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2021-07-19 01:50 +0200
      Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-19 00:10 +0200
        Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2021-07-19 00:20 +0200
          Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-19 00:30 +0200
            Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2021-07-19 01:30 +0200
            Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2021-07-19 01:30 +0200
              Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-19 03:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2021-07-19 04:10 +0200
              Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical Committee) Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2021-07-19 07:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2021-07-19 07:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2021-07-19 10:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Michael Biebl <biebl@debian.org> - 2021-07-19 15:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical Committee) Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2021-07-19 18:40 +0200
      Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Svante Signell <svante.signell@gmail.com> - 2021-07-19 00:30 +0200
        Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2021-07-19 01:30 +0200
  Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org> - 2021-07-16 10:10 +0200
    Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org> - 2021-07-16 13:40 +0200
    Re: merged /usr considered harmful Thorsten Glaser <tg@debian.org> - 2021-07-17 23:20 +0200
      Re: merged /usr considered harmful Geert Stappers <stappers@stappers.nl> - 2021-07-18 08:40 +0200
    Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-07-18 00:30 +0200
      Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2021-07-18 11:20 +0200
        Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2021-07-18 12:30 +0200
        Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2021-07-18 13:20 +0200
          Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2021-07-18 13:20 +0200
          Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2021-07-18 18:00 +0200
            Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2021-07-18 19:00 +0200
              Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2021-07-18 19:20 +0200
              Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2021-07-18 19:20 +0200

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