Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms

From	David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de>
Newsgroups	linux.debian.devel
Subject	Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms
Date	2021-08-22 12:30 +0200
Message-ID	<COSTL-8B-7@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
References	<COClY-6zk-7@gated-at.bofh.it>
Organization	linux.* mail to news gateway

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On Sat, Aug 21, 2021 at 12:47:51PM -0400, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> Personally, I *don't* have a problem about telling people to manually
> update dpkg, apt, and/or apt-get before they do the next major stable
> release (maybe it's because this is something I do as a matter of
> course; it's not that much extra effort, and I'm a paranoid s.o.b.,

So, when did you last log into your build chroot to upgrade dpkg and
apt first? And while at that, did you follow the release notes – from
the future, as they have yet to be written for the release you are
arguably upgrading to already?

But okay, lets assume you actually do: apt and dpkg tend not to be
statically linked, so they end up having dependencies. Some of them even
surprising. In bullseye you e.g. have to upgrade cryptsetup first before
apt can be upgraded (apt → libgcc-s1 → cryptsetup-initramfs → …).
And that is just the first and most obvious chain.
But it would never happen that you would e.g. need to upgrade all of the
KDE desktop environment before upgrading dpkg, right? Well… in Debian
squeeze that nearly happened, but we had to break that chain because it
was actually forming a 500+ loop apt/lenny had trouble dealing with.
Those chains are only investigated if they lead to major problems:
I e.g. never looked at the C++ v5 (copy on write) transition which
likely entangled apt with half of the universe in the general case.

But okay, lets assume we form a team who actually looks into all these.
It is easy, right? No. Dependencies and their version constrains (can)
differ by architecture and mostly propagate by negative dependencies
meaning the individual system state is hugely important. The result is
that hardly any upgrade is the same even if we subsume it all under
"upgrade to bullseye". And regardless of how hard we try, there will
always be other packages which have to go before it is dpkgs turn, so
at least all these have to make due with what was released previously
anyhow.

> and I know that's the most tested path given how Debian testing
> works).

Not really as you can see e.g. with libgcc-s1, as most upgrade problems
aren't due to dpkg or apt in practice, but because the intermediate
steps of a package making testing upgrades a smooth sail aren't visible
for the stable updates. If you want a better tested path, I suggest
stable updates by jumping from week to week via snapshot.d.o. You may
want to skip weeks with actual bugs through.

In the end, it is just simpler to assume that every release+1 package is
installed by dpkg/release (and of course apt/release) than trying to
reason if and how we can make it happen that dpkg is handled before some
other package (without forming loops) or even can be sanely upgraded
ahead of the upgrade entirely. Or are you perhaps volunteering?

Don't get me wrong, as an apt dev I would love if we could do that. It
is kinda annoying to work around issues you have fixed years ago, but
aren't available in (soon) oldstable. We would need a more aggressive
stable-updates strategy but in reality we tend to be held to even higher
standards than all other packages because we are native key packages…
(just look when we froze dpkg… apt at least has a tiny loophole for now
 by not being build-essential in a strict sense)

Not that it really matters. It would just add more moving parts to the
upgrade process – a process, if this entire thread is any indication,
which is hardly understood by anyone in Debian and considered entirely
optional by many. That alone makes me very sad on many levels.

(I wrote this before reading Guillems replies which end on a similar
 note even though he comes from the opposite end – dpkg worried about
 the finer file-level details and apt about the general package-level
 picture meeting halfway as usual… kinda funny)

Best regards

David Kalnischkies

P.S.: As someone will ask: Ubuntu splits the user base in two: Those who
run their release upgrader which runs outside of the packaging system and
largely can do whatever (including bring in a standalone apt/dpkg just
dealing with an upgrade – they usually resign to much simpler things
through) and those who don't like for example chroots and containers who
effectively use whatever an upgrade path 'apt dist-upgrade' gives you.
Which also explains why Ubuntu hasn't fully /usr-merged yet more or less
waiting for Debian to figure that one out. Or, well, they spearhead even
here now as it is apparently too much to ask for an upgrade path in
Debian nowadays.

Thread

merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Thorsten Glaser <tg@debian.org> - 2021-07-14 22:10 +0200
  Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2021-07-14 23:50 +0200
    Re: merged /usr considered harmful Thorsten Glaser <tg@debian.org> - 2021-07-15 05:20 +0200
      Re: merged /usr considered harmful Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org> - 2021-07-16 10:00 +0200
      Re: merged /usr considered harmful Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2021-07-16 13:10 +0200
    Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> - 2021-07-15 09:10 +0200
      Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2021-07-15 10:00 +0200
        Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical Committee) Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2021-07-15 10:50 +0200
          Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2021-07-15 11:40 +0200
          Re: merged /usr considered harmful Thorsten Glaser <tg@debian.org> - 2021-07-16 04:00 +0200
            Re: merged /usr considered harmful Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2021-07-16 09:20 +0200
              Re: merged /usr considered harmful The Wanderer <wanderer@fastmail.fm> - 2021-07-16 10:40 +0200
            endless discussion considered harmful Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2021-07-16 12:40 +0200
        Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> - 2021-07-15 20:10 +0200
    Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-07-15 11:20 +0200
      Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Magissia <debianlist@magissia.com> - 2021-07-16 13:50 +0200
        Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Helmut Grohne <helmut@subdivi.de> - 2021-07-18 23:00 +0200
      Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2021-07-19 03:40 +0200
        Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical Committee) Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2021-07-19 07:20 +0200
          Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Gunnar Wolf <gwolf@debian.org> - 2021-07-19 08:40 +0200
          Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Gunnar Wolf <gwolf@debian.org> - 2021-07-19 09:00 +0200
        Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical Committee) Stephan Lachnit <stephanlachnit@debian.org> - 2021-07-19 11:40 +0200
          Re: merged /usr Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-07-19 13:00 +0200
        Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Michael Biebl <biebl@debian.org> - 2021-07-19 15:30 +0200
          Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical Committee) Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues <josch@debian.org> - 2021-07-19 16:50 +0200
            Re: merged /usr Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-07-19 19:50 +0200
            Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Niels Thykier <niels@thykier.net> - 2021-07-20 08:20 +0200
            Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2021-07-20 11:40 +0200
              Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2021-07-20 12:30 +0200
              Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Andreas Metzler <ametzler@bebt.de> - 2021-07-20 14:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Svante Signell <svante.signell@gmail.com> - 2021-07-20 14:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-20 21:40 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Svante Signell <svante.signell@gmail.com> - 2021-07-20 23:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2021-07-21 00:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Svante Signell <svante.signell@gmail.com> - 2021-07-21 00:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2021-07-21 00:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-21 03:20 +0200
                Re: not actually anything to do with merged-/usr any more Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-07-21 10:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-21 03:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-21 03:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Brian Thompson <brian@hashvault.io> - 2021-07-21 04:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-21 04:40 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical Committee) Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2021-07-21 08:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical Committee) Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2021-07-20 21:40 +0200
                a little productivity on the side (was Re: merged /usr considered  harmful) Thorsten Glaser <tg@debian.org> - 2021-07-22 04:00 +0200
          Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2021-07-20 11:20 +0200
          Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2021-07-22 16:00 +0200
            Re: merged /usr Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-07-22 16:30 +0200
              Re: merged /usr Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2021-07-27 12:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Andreas Metzler <ametzler@bebt.de> - 2021-07-27 14:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2021-07-27 15:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2021-07-27 16:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2021-07-27 17:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2021-07-27 17:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Steve Cotton <steve@octalot.at> - 2021-07-28 02:40 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Andreas Metzler <ametzler@bebt.de> - 2021-07-27 17:40 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2021-07-27 14:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-07-27 16:40 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2021-07-27 17:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Calum McConnell <calumlikesapplepie@gmail.com> - 2021-07-27 19:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-07-28 16:40 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2021-08-13 02:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2021-08-13 08:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2021-08-13 11:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2021-08-13 17:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-13 11:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2021-08-14 14:40 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-14 15:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2021-08-14 16:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-08-14 15:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2021-08-14 17:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-08-15 01:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2021-08-15 12:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-08-15 19:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2021-08-16 01:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2021-08-16 11:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-16 14:40 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2021-08-16 15:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2021-08-17 12:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-17 12:30 +0200
                A summary of where I think we are on the technical side of the  merged /usr discussion Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2021-08-17 16:10 +0200
                Re: A summary of where I think we are on the technical side of the  merged /usr discussion Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-08-17 18:20 +0200
                Re: A summary of where I think we are on the technical side of the  merged /usr discussion "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2021-08-17 19:00 +0200
                Re: A summary of where I think we are on the technical side of the  merged /usr discussion Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-08-17 20:10 +0200
                Re: A summary of where I think we are on the technical side of the  merged /usr discussion Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-08-17 21:20 +0200
                Re: A summary of where I think we are on the technical side of the  merged /usr discussion Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-18 00:30 +0200
                Re: A summary of where I think we are on the technical side of the  merged /usr discussion Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-08-18 10:50 +0200
                Re: A summary of where I think we are on the technical side of the  merged /usr discussion Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-18 11:50 +0200
                Re: A summary of where I think we are on the technical side of the  merged /usr discussion "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2021-08-18 05:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-08-18 11:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2021-08-18 18:40 +0200
                Re: A summary of where I think we are on the technical side of the  merged /usr discussion Helmut Grohne <helmut@subdivi.de> - 2021-08-19 10:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-08-19 12:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2021-08-19 16:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-08-19 22:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2021-08-20 02:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Craig Small <csmall@debian.org> - 2021-08-20 02:40 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-20 12:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2021-08-20 15:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2021-08-21 10:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-21 15:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2021-08-21 16:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-21 19:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Colin Watson <cjwatson@debian.org> - 2021-08-21 21:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-22 12:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2021-08-21 23:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-22 12:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Steve Cotton <steve@octalot.at> - 2021-08-22 13:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-22 23:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2021-11-12 05:00 +0100
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-11-12 12:00 +0100
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-08-22 02:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2021-08-22 05:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-22 12:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2021-08-22 16:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-22 23:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2021-08-23 04:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-23 15:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2021-08-23 17:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-08-23 22:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2021-08-23 22:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2021-08-23 23:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2021-08-23 23:30 +0200
                Debhelper and /lib/systemd vs /usr/lib/systemd Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2021-08-24 01:30 +0200
                Re: Debhelper and /lib/systemd vs /usr/lib/systemd Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2021-08-24 02:00 +0200
                Re: Debhelper and /lib/systemd vs /usr/lib/systemd Niels Thykier <niels@thykier.net> - 2021-08-25 20:40 +0200
                Re: Debhelper and /lib/systemd vs /usr/lib/systemd Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2021-08-25 22:10 +0200
                Re: Debhelper and /lib/systemd vs /usr/lib/systemd Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-08-25 23:10 +0200
                Re: Debhelper and /lib/systemd vs /usr/lib/systemd Niels Thykier <niels@thykier.net> - 2021-08-25 23:30 +0200
                Re: Debhelper and /lib/systemd vs /usr/lib/systemd Andreas Metzler <ametzler@bebt.de> - 2021-08-26 19:40 +0200
                Re: Debhelper and /lib/systemd vs /usr/lib/systemd Niels Thykier <niels@thykier.net> - 2021-08-25 23:20 +0200
                Re: Debhelper and /lib/systemd vs /usr/lib/systemd Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2021-08-26 18:00 +0200
                Re: Debhelper and /lib/systemd vs /usr/lib/systemd Niels Thykier <niels@thykier.net> - 2021-08-26 19:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2021-08-25 18:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2021-08-25 19:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2021-08-25 20:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2021-08-25 22:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2021-08-25 21:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-08-25 22:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2021-08-25 22:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-08-22 17:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-08-22 21:10 +0200
                Making the dpkg database correspond with reality (Was Re: merged  /usr vs. symlink farms) "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2021-08-24 02:50 +0200
                Re: Making the dpkg database correspond with reality (Was Re: merged  /usr vs. symlink farms) Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2021-08-24 08:50 +0200
                Re: Making the dpkg database correspond with reality (Was Re: merged  /usr vs. symlink farms) Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-08-24 12:00 +0200
                Re: Making the dpkg database correspond with reality (Was Re: merged  /usr vs. symlink farms) "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2021-08-24 16:50 +0200
                Re: Making the dpkg database correspond with reality (Was Re: merged  /usr vs. symlink farms) Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-08-24 20:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2021-08-23 16:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2021-08-22 12:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2021-08-21 18:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2021-08-22 12:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2021-08-23 01:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2021-08-23 02:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2021-08-20 16:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2021-08-20 20:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-08-20 23:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-21 15:40 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Sam Hartman <hartmans@suchdamage.org> - 2021-08-23 16:40 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Aurelien Jarno <aurelien@aurel32.net> - 2021-08-25 21:40 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Danilo Santos <santosdanilo2013@gmail.com> - 2021-08-26 08:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2021-08-22 00:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Andreas Metzler <ametzler@bebt.de> - 2021-08-22 09:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> - 2021-08-26 03:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2021-08-26 09:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-08-26 12:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-26 13:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Philip Hands <phil@hands.com> - 2021-08-26 14:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-26 14:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-08-26 15:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2021-08-26 15:40 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2021-08-26 17:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> - 2021-08-26 17:40 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Andreas Metzler <ametzler@bebt.de> - 2021-08-26 19:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-26 16:00 +0200
                next steps after usrunmess Phil Morrell <debian@emorrp1.name> - 2021-08-27 04:50 +0200
                Re: next steps after usrunmess "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2021-08-27 17:30 +0200
                Re: next steps after usrunmess Bastien ROUCARIES <roucaries.bastien@gmail.com> - 2021-08-27 20:00 +0200
                Re: next steps after usrmerge "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2021-08-27 20:10 +0200
                Re: next steps after usrunmess Phil Morrell <debian@emorrp1.name> - 2021-08-27 20:40 +0200
                Re: next steps after usrunmess Bastien ROUCARIES <roucaries.bastien@gmail.com> - 2021-08-27 21:40 +0200
                Re: next steps after usrunmess Richard Laager <rlaager@debian.org> - 2021-08-27 21:20 +0200
                Re: merged-/usr vs. partially-symlink-farmed-root Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2021-08-22 11:10 +0200
                Re: merged-/usr vs. partially-symlink-farmed-root Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-22 12:30 +0200
                Re: merged-/usr vs. partially-symlink-farmed-root Marvin Renich <mrvn@renich.org> - 2021-08-22 18:40 +0200
                Re: merged-/usr vs. partially-symlink-farmed-root Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> - 2021-08-22 19:00 +0200
                Re: merged-/usr vs. partially-symlink-farmed-root Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-22 23:30 +0200
                Re: merged-/usr vs. partially-symlink-farmed-root "Theodore Ts'o" <tytso@mit.edu> - 2021-08-23 00:20 +0200
                Re: merged-/usr vs. partially-symlink-farmed-root Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2021-08-22 23:30 +0200
                Re: merged-/usr vs. partially-symlink-farmed-root Marvin Renich <mrvn@renich.org> - 2021-08-23 16:40 +0200
                Re: merged-/usr vs. partially-symlink-farmed-root Ansgar <ansgar@43-1.org> - 2021-08-23 17:20 +0200
                Re: merged-/usr vs. partially-symlink-farmed-root Marvin Renich <mrvn@renich.org> - 2021-08-23 18:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr vs. symlink farms Tomas Pospisek <tpo2@sourcepole.ch> - 2021-08-22 21:30 +0200
                Re: testing for rootfs vs. /usr reproducibility regressions Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-08-19 12:50 +0200
                Re: testing for rootfs vs. /usr reproducibility regressions Helmut Grohne <helmut@subdivi.de> - 2021-08-20 10:20 +0200
                Re: testing for rootfs vs. /usr reproducibility regressions Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-08-20 12:40 +0200
                Re: testing for rootfs vs. /usr reproducibility regressions Timothy M Butterworth <timothy.m.butterworth@gmail.com> - 2021-08-20 23:40 +0200
                Re: testing for rootfs vs. /usr reproducibility regressions Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2021-08-21 19:30 +0200
                Re: testing for rootfs vs. /usr reproducibility regressions Timothy M Butterworth <timothy.m.butterworth@gmail.com> - 2021-08-21 22:20 +0200
                Re: A summary of where I think we are on the technical side of the  merged /usr discussion Luca Boccassi <bluca@debian.org> - 2021-08-18 00:10 +0200
                Re: A summary of where I think we are on the technical side of the  merged /usr discussion Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2021-08-18 07:00 +0200
                Re: A summary of where I think we are on the technical side of the  merged /usr discussion Tim Woodall <debiandevel@woodall.me.uk> - 2021-08-18 18:20 +0200
                Changing how you do things: Was Re: merged /usr Tim Woodall <debiandevel@woodall.me.uk> - 2021-08-18 09:50 +0200
                Re: Changing how you do things: Was Re: merged /usr David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2021-08-18 15:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr David Kalnischkies <david@kalnischkies.de> - 2021-08-16 11:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2021-08-17 11:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Vagrant Cascadian <vagrant@reproducible-builds.org> - 2021-08-17 18:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-08-17 19:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> - 2021-08-17 19:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2021-08-16 16:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2021-08-16 16:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2021-08-16 16:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2021-08-16 17:00 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2021-08-17 19:10 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2021-08-16 23:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org> - 2021-07-27 17:10 +0200
    Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Svante Signell <svante.signell@gmail.com> - 2021-07-18 21:00 +0200
      Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-18 23:50 +0200
      Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-19 00:00 +0200
        Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Andy Smith <andy@strugglers.net> - 2021-07-19 01:50 +0200
      Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-19 00:10 +0200
        Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2021-07-19 00:20 +0200
          Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-19 00:30 +0200
            Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2021-07-19 01:30 +0200
            Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2021-07-19 01:30 +0200
              Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Polyna-Maude Racicot-Summerside <debian@polynamaude.com> - 2021-07-19 03:20 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2021-07-19 04:10 +0200
              Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical Committee) Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2021-07-19 07:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2021-07-19 07:50 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2021-07-19 10:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Michael Biebl <biebl@debian.org> - 2021-07-19 15:30 +0200
                Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical Committee) Marc Haber <mh+debian-devel@zugschlus.de> - 2021-07-19 18:40 +0200
      Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Svante Signell <svante.signell@gmail.com> - 2021-07-19 00:30 +0200
        Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2021-07-19 01:30 +0200
  Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org> - 2021-07-16 10:10 +0200
    Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org> - 2021-07-16 13:40 +0200
    Re: merged /usr considered harmful Thorsten Glaser <tg@debian.org> - 2021-07-17 23:20 +0200
      Re: merged /usr considered harmful Geert Stappers <stappers@stappers.nl> - 2021-07-18 08:40 +0200
    Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Simon McVittie <smcv@debian.org> - 2021-07-18 00:30 +0200
      Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2021-07-18 11:20 +0200
        Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Bastian Blank <waldi@debian.org> - 2021-07-18 12:30 +0200
        Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2021-07-18 13:20 +0200
          Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2021-07-18 13:20 +0200
          Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT> - 2021-07-18 18:00 +0200
            Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Stephan Verbücheln <verbuecheln@posteo.de> - 2021-07-18 19:00 +0200
              Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2021-07-18 19:20 +0200
              Re: merged /usr considered harmful (was Re: Bits from the Technical  Committee) Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> - 2021-07-18 19:20 +0200

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