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Re: Debian should not engage in politics and stay neutral [was: This is not the direction that will lead to hearing each other]

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Le vendredi 09 avril 2021 à 17:27:30+0200, Thomas Goirand a écrit :
> On 4/7/21 7:27 PM, Sam Hartman wrote:
> > 
> > I wasn't thrilled with Steve's message; I sent him what I hope are some
> > constructive comments privately.
> > Bringing up nazis is rarely going to  calm things down or promote
> > constructive discussion.
> > And yes, he did that.
> > 
> > But Adrian!  You really doubled down on the tension.
> > I appreciate that you are frustrated and disagree strongly with some of
> > what Steve is saying.
> > 
> > I hear that you would like to have a discussion on how our diversity
> > statement interacts with organizations people affiliatef with.
> > 
> > Doubling down on the nazi thing isn't going to give us a constructive or
> > healthy discussion.
> > There are ways to have the discussion you are looking for that will be
> > more constructive and that will not promote quite so much of aflame war.
> > 
> > 
> > It sounds like you aren't feeling heard.
> > The particular example you picked is only likely to escalate things so
> > that none of us are hearing each other.
> > 
> > Please let us find a way to step back, listen to your concerns, but also
> > respect the other people involved.
> > 
> 
> To the contrary, I haven't found anything in Adrian's post aggressive,
> and very much, he is pointing at a topic we may want to address.
> 
> It's been said that RMS current issue is his *personal* view on some
> topics, which aren't related to his work at FSF. One may agree with him
> or not, or find what he wrote unacceptable or not, disgusting or not.
> This isn't what I would like to discuss.
> 
> The point is: is there some restrictions on political views that the
> Debian community/project would like to enforce? I've heard someone
> complaining that the Debian project hasn't made a statement about black
> live maters and George Floyd. Is it ok if I believe in Communist and
> strongly support the Chinese government, including the social
> engineering part? Am I allowed to be a Trump supporter, denying the
> climate change is man made?
> 
> More disturbing things now... What if I'm working for NSA, and
> contribute to Debian so that the US government can spy even better on
> everyone? What if I'm working in Russia, and contribute to Debian for
> improving the army missile guidance system? Or if I'm contracted by the
> Chinese government so that they can use Debian to better track their
> citizens? Is all of that OK as a contribution to Debian?
> 
> What if I were fighting against same sex marriage? Or if I was at the
> head of a company hiring people $1 per day to make shoes in Indonesia?
> 
> My own view on this is *very* liberal. In my view, we should allow
> absolutely all of the above, without any restriction. Why? Simply
> because otherwise, it's impossible to draw the line and set reasonable
> limits, without having infinite flame wars in our lists, which distract
> us from our very important missing: being the best free operating
> system. BTW, what's the RC bugs count for Bullseye? :)
> 
> I've joined Debian because of its technical excellence, and I'm staying
> because I believe in software freedom. I am trying to force myself to
> not have too many interference on the interactions I have with other DDs
> because of political topics (and that, even though it itches a lot as I
> really love to share my ideas). I very much would like other DDs to try
> to do the same if possible. It would be great if we all agree that
> Debian is *not* the place to have this kind of political debates. There
> are other places to do that. Engage yourself in politics, if you want,
> but outside of Debian. I will deeply respect it, and will enjoy talking
> politics with you (I very much enjoy any political talks, and I do have
> very strong opinions on some topics), but simply, outside of Debian is
> better.
> 
> The DFSG and social contract are there so that there's one thing we must
> agree on. I haven't signed up for one side of the political spectrum.
> Please respect this.
> 
> Though as time passes, I'm seeing all of these lines increasingly
> blurred. I hope for Debian to not become too engaged (promoting views I
> share or not).
> 
> And there's what Adrian wrote:
> 
> > If membership in Debian would imply anything about political opinions,
> > this could get some of our members into untenable positions where
> > I would be worried about their safety.
> 
> which I very much agree with. We also don't want Debian to become banned
> from some countries because the project is too much engaged into
> political debates (no need to name a particular country here I suppose...).
> 
> I'm sure I'm not the only person with this opinion. Please let me know
> I'm not alone.
> 
> Cheers,

There seem to be for me some confusion here.

It is not the same at all to accept people with different views and to
let them express these if they go against the Code of Conduct we voted.
(and even having stated that, I'd probably feel like asking for the
expulsion of any nazi if there was one here)

Apart from that, Debian is political by its mere existence, and
expressing some opinion on who does or does not help us to achieve our
goals is quite relevant.

The fact that you are not alone having this opinion doesn't mean it is
the most shared one.

You are free by maintaining the status quo by not paying attention to
other's political opinion.

Regards,

-- 
Pierre-Elliott Bécue
GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528  F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2
It's far easier to fight for principles than to live up to them.

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Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board] Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2021-04-06 22:50 +0200
  Diversity in an international project Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2021-04-07 19:00 +0200
    Re: Diversity in an international project Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2021-04-07 20:00 +0200
    This is not the direction that will lead to hearing each other Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2021-04-07 20:00 +0200
      Re: Debian should not engage in politics and stay neutral [was: This is not the direction that will lead to hearing each other] Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org> - 2021-04-09 17:40 +0200
        Re: Debian should not engage in politics and stay neutral [was: This is not the direction that will lead to hearing each other] Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2021-04-09 18:10 +0200
          Re: Debian should not engage in politics and stay neutral [was: This is not the direction that will lead to hearing each other] Jonas Smedegaard <dr@jones.dk> - 2021-04-09 19:20 +0200
        Re: Debian should not engage in politics and stay neutral [was: This is not the direction that will lead to hearing each other] Gilles Filippini <pini@debian.org> - 2021-04-09 18:10 +0200
        Re: Debian should not engage in politics and stay neutral [was: This is not the direction that will lead to hearing each other] Roger Shimizu <rogershimizu@gmail.com> - 2021-04-09 18:50 +0200
        When is a political view too strong to be compatible with Debian Participation Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2021-04-09 19:00 +0200
        Re: Debian should not engage in politics and stay neutral [was: This is not the direction that will lead to hearing each other] Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> - 2021-04-09 19:30 +0200
        Re: Debian should not engage in politics and stay neutral [was: This is not the direction that will lead to hearing each other] Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2021-04-09 19:40 +0200
        Re: Debian should not engage in politics and stay neutral [was: This is not the direction that will lead to hearing each other] Tiago Bortoletto Vaz <tiago@debian.org> - 2021-04-09 20:20 +0200
          Re: Debian should not engage in politics and stay neutral [was: This is not the direction that will lead to hearing each other] Iustin Pop <iustin@debian.org> - 2021-04-09 21:20 +0200
          Re: Debian should not engage in politics and stay neutral [was: This is not the direction that will lead to hearing each other] Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> - 2021-04-10 00:00 +0200
            Re: Debian should not engage in politics and stay neutral [was: This is not the direction that will lead to hearing each other] Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2021-04-10 00:20 +0200
              Re: Debian should not engage in politics and stay neutral [was: This is not the direction that will lead to hearing each other] Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> - 2021-04-10 00:30 +0200
                Re: Debian should not engage in politics and stay neutral [was: This is not the direction that will lead to hearing each other] <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2021-04-10 10:00 +0200
            Re: Debian should not engage in politics and stay neutral [was: This is not the direction that will lead to hearing each other] Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org> - 2021-04-10 18:20 +0200
        Re: Debian should not engage in politics and stay neutral [was: This is not the direction that will lead to hearing each other] Iustin Pop <iustin@debian.org> - 2021-04-09 21:20 +0200
  Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board] Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> - 2021-04-07 21:50 +0200
    Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board] Bernd Zeimetz <bernd@bzed.de> - 2021-04-11 02:20 +0200
      Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board] gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> - 2021-04-11 03:20 +0200
        Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board] Geert Stappers <stappers@debian.org> - 2021-04-11 09:20 +0200
        Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board] Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2021-04-11 13:10 +0200
        Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board] Bernd Zeimetz <bernd@bzed.de> - 2021-04-11 15:20 +0200
      Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board] Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2021-04-12 15:20 +0200
        Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board] Pierre-Elliott Bécue <peb@debian.org> - 2021-04-12 15:30 +0200
        Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board] Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2021-04-12 16:00 +0200
          Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board] Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2021-04-12 17:10 +0200
            Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board] Michael Stone <mstone@debian.org> - 2021-04-12 18:50 +0200
              Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board] Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2021-04-12 20:30 +0200
        Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board] "Thaddeus H. Black" <thb@debian.org> - 2021-04-12 17:50 +0200
          Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board] Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> - 2021-04-12 18:30 +0200
            Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board] Andreas Metzler <ametzler@bebt.de> - 2021-04-12 19:20 +0200
            Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board] Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2021-04-12 19:20 +0200
              Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board] Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> - 2021-04-13 22:30 +0200
                Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board] Jonas Smedegaard <dr@jones.dk> - 2021-04-14 09:30 +0200
                Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board] Sam Hartman <hartmans@debian.org> - 2021-04-15 15:40 +0200
          Re: Tone policing by a member of the community team [Was, Re: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board] Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> - 2021-04-12 20:20 +0200

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