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Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice

From Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net>
Newsgroups linux.debian.user
Subject Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice
Date 2020-08-08 01:40 +0200
Message-ID <ABk7U-56W-1@gated-at.bofh.it> (permalink)
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On 8/7/2020 10:48 AM, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>>> Extra space taken, extra power used 24/7 (which in turn requires an
>>> extra plug because the poor BananaPi can't provide all that power),
>> 	Now it is my turn to ask, "Seriously?"
> 
> [ See, our use cases *are* very different.  ]
> Yes, in my experience Banana Pis quickly become unreliable if you push
> their power system a bit (e.g. I've had no end of problems with it until
> I finally found a good enough USB cable to provide power).

	No, I am talking about "Extra space taken, extra power used 24/7".  An 
external device just does not use that much power or take a lot of space.

>>> Extra failures (more hardware => more failures), ...
>> 	More failures on average, but far less serious and costly ones.
> 
> In terms of monetary cost, the RAID solution is definitely on the "more
> expensive" side (at least overall, and I can't see why it would be
> cheaper "on the spot" when a you need to replace a failing drive).

	RAID originally stood for "Redundant Array of Inexpensive Disks". 
Folks now tend to use "Redundant Array of Independent Disks", in part 
because many RAID arrays use very expensive disks, but also because the 
delta in cost between large, fast disks and smaller, slower disks is no 
longer all that high.  Nonetheless, it is still true a collection of 
smaller disks can be less expensive than a large disk, especially if one 
already has some smaller disks laying around.

>>>>> RAID is basically an insurance.
>>>> 	Not entirely.  A RAID 5 or RAID 6 array is far, far faster than
>>>> 	a single hard drive.
>>> Right, RAID-over-USB is of course going to blow my SSD-over-SATA out of
>>> the water by a wide margin (not!).
>> 	On the Banana Pi it can.
> 
> I'm not sure what makes you think so.  In terms of bandwidth USB2 limits

	With some exceptions, the Pi boards use micro SD cards.  They are 
slower than an external drive.  I have confirmed that.

>>>> 	It is also much larger than a single hard drive, sometimes at
>>>> 	less expense than a single large hard drive.
>>> That's great if you happen to be in that spot, but that's not my case.
>> 	What spot?  You mentioned cost.  For many configurations, 4 small
>> 	drives are cheaper than 1 large one.
> 
> My space needs are sufficiently low that I don't need to buy an
> expensive large drive.  The drive with the lowest cost in terms of "GB
> per $" is plenty for my needs.

	This thread is about a NAS, remember?  By definition it is a repository 
of data.

> I don't think it can because you then have to sync the external drive
> with two different internal drives and that seems to be asking for a lot
> of trouble because of the need to keep your different systems 100% in-sync.

	That is very simple to accomplish.  A boot script will do it.

>>> And if I keep my home partition in it, the "presto" comes with the
>>> footnote "after you logout and log back in" (fun!)
>> 	You lost me.  Why log out?
> 
> In my experience unplugging a USB disk while it's mounted is a recipe
> for hangs and replugging it will not always bring the partition back to life.

	Why do that?  Boot the machine with the array attached.  In any case, 
we are talking about an available option, here.  It exists with an 
external device.  It does not without.  One chooses to avail one's self 
of an available option, or not.  Without the option, there is no choice. 
  I definitely prefer options.

>>> but if I don't keep my home partition on it, then my home partition
>>> is again not protects by RAID at which point I'm starting to wonder
>>> what I would put on that RAID.
>> 	Data, but then I definitely recommend putting /home on the external
>> 	array, so the question is a bit moot.
> 
> I don't have other data than /home on my laptop.

	Again, I remind you this thread is about a NAS.

> 
>>>> 	It's really not any different logically than an external drive,
>>>> 	except it is faster, larger, and more robust.
>>> It's no different, indeed, except a bit more expensive and bigger.
>> 	Well, OK.  How much is down-time worth?
> 
> What down time?
> You mean the time to walk over and grab my hot spare laptop?

	Which does not have the information on the failed laptop.  If that 
information is at all important, it constitutes downtime to recover it. 
For a NAS, that can be pretty big.

>> 	If you consider the cost of the downtime associated with
>> 	a failed system to be trivial, then that aspect is
>> 	not important.
> 
> That's exactly my point.

	Does that relate well to the thread?  To other people setting up a NAS?

> Even more so when that downtime only happens once every 10 years or so
> (my rate so far is a bit lower than that, but let's assume that a drive
> of mine will fail tomorrow).

	I had to deal with six failed drives last month.  While higher than 
most months, it isn't a record, either.  My downtime? Zero.  Compare 
that to a Windows system which suffered a catastrophic failure of its 
RAID array a few months ago.  I am still recovering from that.

>>> But more importantly: there's a reason why I'm not using an external
>>> drive at all in the first place.
>> 	I am sure there is.  Do you admit that external drives are extremely
>> 	popular?  Literally millions of them are sold every year.
> 
> Yes, and so were floppys and optical drives.

	That's argumentative.  They serve a very real purpose.

> No, I'm just saying that RAID will save me from this trouble once every
> 10 years, but other things will still cause me to lose some of my work
> several times a year, so the gain of RAID is a drop in the ocean.

	All I can say as a 40 year veteran in this industry is that is not my 
experience.

> As I said, downtime is minimal because I have other machines I can use
> "on the spot".

	Again, not with the data from the failed system.


> As for time to rebuild a system, it's a matter of connecting the new
> drive to my running system (via an external enclosure) to clone the
> 100GB or so of my root+home and then put the drive into its
> final destination.

	Yet again, missing any data on the old machine.  If that data is not 
important, then fine, although it begs the question, "Why have a 
computer at all?"  If a backup exists, then the data can be recovered 
onto the new system, but that takes *TIME*.  Any data not on a backup 
must be manually recovered by reproducing the original work, and that 
can really take *TIME*.  In my case, sometimes months.  I am talking 
about a real-world scenario, here, which actually happened, not a 
hypothetical.  I am also talking about five digits in terms of the cost.

> Not fundamentally very different from plugging it into the machine and
> waiting for the RAID system to do the close.  The main difference is
> that the machine is temporarily unusable, but since I have other
> machines it's not a significant issue.

	You seem to be stuck on hardware.  Machines are extremely cheap, 
especially compared to the data they usually host.  While firing up a 
new machine does take a significant amount of time and a little money, 
it is nothing compared to the loss of important data.  Even if the data 
is backed up, which it should be, it still takes time to restore it.

>> 	For many of us, even an hour of downtime is very expensive, and
>> 	rebuilding a machine during peak hours can be hideously costly.
>> 	It is always a pain in the ass.
> 
> Yes, I agree that RAID can be handy in some contexts.

	No, it is *ESSENTIAL* whenever time and data are important.


> I think part of the difference is also where we get the "reliability via
> redundancy".  I use my machines in such a way that none of them
> are indispensable.

	My machines are completely dispensable, although of course I don't like 
having to pay for a new machine and the time and effort to build it. 
What is not dispensable is my time and the time my clients have to wait 
for me.  Wasted time with a vendor can be expensive, too.

	Even if the delay is not serious, it is still distressing.

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Thread

Homebuilt NAS Advice Patrick Bartek <patrick.bartek@gmail.com> - 2020-07-29 22:00 +0200
  Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-07-29 22:20 +0200
    Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2020-07-29 22:30 +0200
      Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-07-29 23:40 +0200
    Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Patrick Bartek <patrick.bartek@gmail.com> - 2020-07-30 02:50 +0200
      Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Tom Dial <tddial@comcast.net> - 2020-07-30 22:50 +0200
        Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-08-02 01:40 +0200
          Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2020-08-02 03:10 +0200
            Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Keith Bainbridge <ke1th3216@gmail.com> - 2020-08-02 04:50 +0200
              Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2020-08-02 06:10 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-08-02 21:30 +0200
            Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-08-02 22:10 +0200
          Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2020-08-03 06:10 +0200
            Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Jonathan Dowland <jon+debian-user@dow.land> - 2020-08-03 17:30 +0200
              Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Dan Ritter <dsr@randomstring.org> - 2020-08-03 17:40 +0200
              Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2020-08-03 18:40 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-08-03 19:10 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-08-03 22:00 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice <tomas@tuxteam.de> - 2020-08-03 22:20 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2020-08-03 23:50 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-08-04 00:50 +0200
            Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-08-04 00:40 +0200
    Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2020-07-30 10:00 +0200
      Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-07-30 13:20 +0200
  Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-07-30 01:50 +0200
    Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2020-07-30 23:40 +0200
    Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2020-08-08 01:30 +0200
      Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-08-08 03:30 +0200
        Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2020-08-09 14:40 +0200
  Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Peter Ehlert <peter@sdi-baja.com> - 2020-07-30 19:00 +0200
    Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Charles Curley <charlescurley@charlescurley.com> - 2020-07-30 21:50 +0200
      Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2020-07-31 13:10 +0200
    Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2020-07-30 23:30 +0200
      Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-08-02 01:50 +0200
        Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2020-08-02 17:50 +0200
  Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Jonathan Dowland <jon+debian-user@dow.land> - 2020-08-03 17:20 +0200
    Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-08-04 00:10 +0200
      Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-08-04 01:20 +0200
        Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2020-08-04 10:40 +0200
          Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Jonathan Dowland <jon+debian-user@dow.land> - 2020-08-04 11:30 +0200
            Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2020-08-04 16:00 +0200
              Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2020-08-04 16:30 +0200
              Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-08-05 05:50 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2020-08-05 16:20 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Jonathan Dowland <jon+debian-user@dow.land> - 2020-08-05 17:00 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2020-08-05 17:40 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-08-06 12:10 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2020-08-06 16:10 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-08-06 17:10 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2020-08-06 18:10 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Jonathan Dowland <jon+debian-user@dow.land> - 2020-08-07 18:30 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2020-08-07 19:40 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-08-08 00:10 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2020-08-09 04:30 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Jonathan Dowland <jon+debian-user@dow.land> - 2020-08-09 11:10 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2020-08-09 17:00 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2020-08-09 18:30 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2020-08-09 19:20 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-08-09 23:50 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2020-08-10 00:00 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2020-08-10 00:30 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2020-08-10 00:50 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-08-10 00:30 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2020-08-10 00:30 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2020-08-09 18:40 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2020-08-09 23:00 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-08-06 18:20 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-08-07 05:30 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Jonathan Dowland <jon+debian-user@dow.land> - 2020-08-07 18:30 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice rhkramer@gmail.com - 2020-08-06 17:20 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Celejar <celejar@gmail.com> - 2020-08-06 18:20 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2020-08-06 18:20 +0200
        Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Andrei POPESCU <andreimpopescu@gmail.com> - 2020-08-04 17:20 +0200
          Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-08-05 06:20 +0200
        Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-08-05 04:30 +0200
          Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-08-05 09:20 +0200
            Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-08-05 11:00 +0200
              Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-08-05 21:00 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-08-06 03:50 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Kushal Kumaran <kushal@locationd.net> - 2020-08-06 06:20 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-08-06 18:20 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-08-07 04:10 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2020-08-07 05:50 +0200
            Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Jonathan Dowland <jon+debian-user@dow.land> - 2020-08-05 12:30 +0200
      Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Jonathan Dowland <jon+debian-user@dow.land> - 2020-08-05 12:30 +0200
        Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-08-05 21:10 +0200
          Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Jonathan Dowland <jon+debian-user@dow.land> - 2020-08-05 23:30 +0200
            Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-08-06 00:30 +0200
              Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-08-06 01:20 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Jonathan Dowland <jon+debian-user@dow.land> - 2020-08-08 09:10 +0200
              Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2020-08-06 04:30 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-08-06 04:50 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2020-08-06 06:20 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-08-06 07:10 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-08-06 07:30 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2020-08-06 18:10 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-08-06 18:30 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-08-07 03:00 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-08-07 03:20 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-08-07 05:00 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2020-08-07 05:40 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-08-07 08:00 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-08-07 08:50 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-08-07 09:10 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2020-08-07 17:50 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-08-08 01:40 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2020-08-08 04:50 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-08-08 22:30 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> - 2020-08-09 00:20 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice deloptes <deloptes@gmail.com> - 2020-08-09 01:30 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2020-08-09 22:40 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice David Christensen <dpchrist@holgerdanske.com> - 2020-08-10 00:30 +0200
                Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Leslie Rhorer <lesrhorer@att.net> - 2020-08-10 01:30 +0200
    Re: Homebuilt NAS Advice Patrick Bartek <nemommxiv@gmail.com> - 2020-08-04 06:30 +0200

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