Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!!

Subject	Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!!
Newsgroups	comp.arch.embedded
References	(6 earlier) <ofg6t6$g77$1@dont-email.me> <N1USA.14492$8r1.3523@fx42.am4> <ofh332$26n$2@dont-email.me> <dNUSA.16638$C56.1284@fx34.am4> <c7udnfv5fdjC9oHEnZ2dnUU7-cmdnZ2d@giganews.com>
From	Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk>
Message-ID	<9F%SA.17099$IO2.5006@fx12.am4> (permalink)
Organization	virginmedia.com
Date	2017-05-17 18:22 +0100

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On 17/05/17 16:25, Tim Wescott wrote:
> On Wed, 17 May 2017 10:32:59 +0100, Tom Gardner wrote:
>
>> On 17/05/17 09:57, Reinhardt Behm wrote:
>>> AT Wednesday 17 May 2017 16:42, Tom Gardner wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 17/05/17 01:56, Don Y wrote:
>>>>> On 5/16/2017 3:51 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
>>>>>> The other dysfunctional aspect of unit tests is that,
>>>>>> while they are very useful when making incremental improvements
>>>>>> during design, they can be a real impediment in a few months/years
>>>>>> time. The problem is that over time people forget which tests
>>>>>> demonstrate required properties, and which are merely ensuring
>>>>>> behaviour of implementation artifacts. At that point people are
>>>>>> afraid to make changes that break tests, even if the tests are
>>>>>> unimportant. At that point the codebase has become ossified.
>>>>>
>>>>> But that's true any time you (attempt to) nail down an aspect of a
>>>>> design.  Moreso if you don't provide a rationale for WHY the
>>>>> requirement (whether it be from a spec or a test) was imposed.
>>>>
>>>> Of course. Nonetheless, it happens - and zealots sometimes refuse to
>>>> admit it.
>>>
>>> Therefor any good development process demands that requirements
>>> (high-level,
>>> or low-level) must be traceable to system requirements or must be
>>> marked as design decisions. Then you have the WHY.
>>> A test can not be the source of a requirement. A test should also be
>>> traceable to sys-reqs.
>>> And hopefully the sys-reqs are good.
>>
>> We are in violent agreement.
>>
>> But my point is about the XP/Agile/TDD/Unit Test zealots that overstate
>> the benefits of those techniques and ignore their dysfunctional aspects.
>
> That's kind of the definition of a zealot.
>
> Something that Reinhardt -- and I think maybe you -- are missing, is that
> part of the reason for agile is that requirements don't remain static.
> As soon as people see a something working, the requirements change -- and
> saying "no, I'm sorry person-who-signs-checks, we're going to spend the
> next year making what you asked for initially and THEN we're going to
> entertain change requests".
>
> So you can't treat requirements as static things graved in stone.  Agile
> tries to deal with that, and as near as I can tell, only having nibbled
> at the edges of it, it does a reasonably good job of it for things that
> aren't terribly safety critical.  Agile is also new, so it's naturally
> going to attract zealots -- the trick is to see the value underneath the
> hype, and then make rational choices about what to do.

I understand and agree with all of that.

I once pushed for agile practices to be introduced into a
company for those reasons. I then saw the newly-trained
staff think it was a good idea to delete /all/ comments on
the religious principle that comments are bad because they
get out of sync with the code. They also changed private
functions and data to public so that they could be seen
by their unit tests - thereby encouraging future developers
to /misuse/ the classes in ways that are easily avoidable.

That doesn't mean agile is bad (it isn't!), only that
/unthinkingly/ following a process is bad.

Thread

[OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-05-16 13:49 -0500
  Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Steve Wilson <no@spam.com> - 2017-05-16 19:04 +0000
  Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 12:14 -0700
    Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really> - 2017-05-16 14:41 -0500
      Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 14:01 -0700
        Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! mike <ham789@netzero.net> - 2017-05-16 14:42 -0700
        Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-05-16 17:09 -0500
          Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 16:42 -0700
        Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Clifford Heath <clifford.heath@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 09:00 +1000
  Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! eric.jacobsen@ieee.org - 2017-05-16 20:17 +0000
    Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really> - 2017-05-16 15:24 -0500
      Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-16 22:05 +0100
        Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-05-16 17:11 -0500
          Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-16 23:51 +0100
            Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-05-16 18:32 -0500
              Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Clifford Heath <clifford.heath@gmail.com> - 2017-05-17 09:41 +1000
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 09:35 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-17 19:03 +1000
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 10:31 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2017-05-17 23:07 +1000
              Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 09:41 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Paul <paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 10:10 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 10:34 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Paul <paul@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 15:59 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 18:04 +0100
              Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 18:02 +0100
            Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 17:56 -0700
              Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 09:42 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-05-17 16:57 +0800
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 10:32 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-05-17 18:12 +0800
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-17 03:54 -0700
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2017-05-17 21:57 +0800
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-17 09:36 -0700
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2017-05-17 18:07 +0300
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2017-05-17 10:44 -0500
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-17 09:47 -0700
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-17 10:18 -0700
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Niklas Holsti <niklas.holsti@tidorum.invalid> - 2017-05-17 20:25 +0300
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-17 12:01 -0700
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really> - 2017-05-17 10:25 -0500
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 18:22 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-05-17 12:36 -0500
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 18:45 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-17 03:42 -0700
  Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! "billbowden" <bperryb@bowdenshobbycircuits.info> - 2017-05-16 15:04 -0700
    Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-16 15:30 -0700
  Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Martin Riddle <martin_ridd@verizon.net> - 2017-05-16 20:02 -0400
  Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-16 20:40 -0400
  Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Randy Yates <randyy@garnerundergroundinc.com> - 2017-05-17 09:12 -0400
    Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really> - 2017-05-17 10:02 -0500
      Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 18:11 +0100
        Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-05-17 12:21 -0500
          Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 18:36 +0100
            Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-05-17 12:43 -0500
              Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 18:55 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 18:57 +0100
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2017-05-17 13:28 -0500
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-17 20:08 +0100
  Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! boB K7IQ <boB@everett.wa> - 2017-05-17 21:30 -0700
    Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really> - 2017-05-18 00:03 -0500
    Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2017-05-18 08:18 +0100
      Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! boB K7IQ <boB@everett.wa> - 2017-05-18 22:56 -0700
        Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Vassilis Spiliopoulos <vassilis@vask1lux.de> - 2017-05-19 14:31 +0300
          Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.really> - 2017-05-19 10:39 -0500
            Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Vassilis Spiliopoulos <vassilis@vask1lux.de> - 2017-05-19 23:02 +0300
              Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-19 13:12 -0700
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! dplatt@coop.radagast.org (Dave Platt) - 2017-05-19 15:00 -0700
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> - 2017-05-19 16:05 -0700
              Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! boB K7IQ <boB@everett.wa> - 2017-05-21 01:46 -0700
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! Vassilis Spiliopoulos <vassilis@vask1lux.de> - 2017-05-21 17:31 +0300
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> - 2017-05-21 13:31 -0500
                Re: [OT] I got a JOB!!! krw@notreal.com - 2017-05-21 16:47 -0400

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