Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.theory > #50052

Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3)

From Ben <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>
Newsgroups comp.theory
Subject Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3)
Date 2022-05-09 00:26 +0100
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <87r153sj1r.fsf@bsb.me.uk> (permalink)
References (16 earlier) <20220508200637.0000491c@reddwarf.jmc> <U%UdK.8711$t72a.8053@fx10.iad> <20220508211421.000031a0@reddwarf.jmc> <ENWdK.7593$VwRc.5901@fx01.iad> <20220508230420.0000053f@reddwarf.jmc>

Show all headers | View raw

Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> writes:

> On Sun, 8 May 2022 17:40:52 -0400
> Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> wrote:
<cut>
>> Nope. Yes, R will call/invoke T to get a value, but T does not (and
>> in fact can not) invoke R to determine if it halts, so no infinite
>> recursion.
>> 
>> Note, you are making the error of assuming that the only way to even
>> try to determine if a program will halt is to just run it.
<cut>

> Confusion lay with what Strachey said:
>
> "T[R] = True if R terminates if run"
>
> "if run" doesn't have to mean T[R] runs R.
>
> HOWEVER it would be nice to know what T[R] actually means in the
> obsolete CPL programming language Strachey is using (R is a ROUTINE
> passed as an argument to T a FUNCTION).

That's all it is, like T(R) in C (with R a void function being the
closest thing to a routine in C).

But, as you've seen, there's a basic problem with all sketches like
this.  You have to imagine that whatever T /might/ be able to do won't
be enough, despite knowing that T can't really do anything with a
routine but call it.

We might speculate that this implementation of CPL provides a
SourceOf[R] function that recovers the source code for R, or maybe T can
inspect the compiled code via that argument (as you can do in
non-standard C code) and make the decision based on that.

This is not a problem for Turing machines, because a TM can only be
provided with a string of symbols that represents (in some agreed
encoding) a TM/input pair.  The TM has access to every deducible fact
about that TM/input pair and the proof just shows that halting is not
one of those deducible facts.

A good middle ground between CPL and and Turing machine is Lisp, as Lisp
programs have the same form as Lisp data.  A halt decider for Lisp would
be passed an S-expression like this:

  (defun halt_decider (exp) ...)

with the specification that (halt_decider e) returns true if (eval e)
would terminate and false otherwise.

halt_decider can't actually run (eval e) to find out, of course, but the
function can examine the expression to determine it's structure and
could decide on that basis.  The function could even include a Lisp
interpreter so as to carry out a partial interpretation of (eval e)
which, along with any other examination of e that the programmer can
imagine, could be used to make the decision.

These are all techniques motivated by the features of Lisp itself where
CPL (at least without any extensions) can do nothing with a routine
other than call it.

> So modulo the outcome of that CPL question I agree with you and Olcott
> is wrong if his mistake is the same as mine.

A rare thing in Usenet.  Kudos.

-- 
Ben.

Back to comp.theory | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2022-05-05 17:50 +0100
  Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2022-05-05 13:58 -0500
    Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Ben <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-05-05 20:56 +0100
      Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2022-05-05 17:15 -0500
        Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Ben <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-05-06 02:43 +0100
          Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2022-05-05 20:59 -0500
            Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Ben <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-05-06 04:08 +0100
  Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Ben <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-05-05 20:51 +0100
    Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2022-05-05 20:52 +0100
      Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Ben <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-05-05 21:15 +0100
        Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2022-05-05 21:16 +0100
      Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2022-05-05 16:35 -0500
    Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2022-05-05 16:37 -0500
      Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Ben <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-05-06 02:38 +0100
        Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2022-05-05 20:42 -0500
          Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Ben <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-05-06 03:59 +0100
  Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2022-05-05 22:33 -0400
    Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2022-05-06 15:02 +0100
      Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Python <python@example.invalid> - 2022-05-06 16:18 +0200
        Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2022-05-06 11:55 -0500
      Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2022-05-07 12:52 +0300
        Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2022-05-07 13:42 +0100
          Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2022-05-07 16:59 +0300
            Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2022-05-07 15:06 +0100
              Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2022-05-07 17:16 +0300
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2022-05-07 15:20 +0100
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2022-05-07 18:13 +0300
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2022-05-07 16:19 +0100
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2022-05-07 11:03 -0500
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Ben <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-05-07 23:41 +0100
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2022-05-07 23:43 +0100
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2022-05-07 19:59 -0400
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2022-05-08 01:01 +0100
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2022-05-07 20:18 -0400
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2022-05-08 01:55 +0100
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2022-05-08 11:31 +0300
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2022-05-08 09:49 +0100
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2022-05-08 13:00 +0300
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2022-05-08 12:57 +0100
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2022-05-08 07:45 -0400
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2022-05-08 13:02 +0100
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2022-05-08 08:31 -0400
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2022-05-08 13:39 +0100
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2022-05-08 14:10 -0400
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2022-05-08 20:06 +0100
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2022-05-08 15:39 -0400
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2022-05-08 21:14 +0100
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2022-05-08 17:40 -0400
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2022-05-08 23:04 +0100
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Ben <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2022-05-09 00:26 +0100
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2022-05-08 19:40 -0400
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2022-05-09 10:55 -0500
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2022-05-09 20:13 -0400
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2022-05-09 10:51 -0500
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2022-05-09 18:31 +0100
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2022-05-09 12:36 -0500
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2022-05-09 20:15 -0400
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2022-05-09 20:14 -0400
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2022-05-09 10:49 -0500
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Mr Flibble <flibble@reddwarf.jmc> - 2022-05-09 18:31 +0100
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2022-05-09 12:37 -0500
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2022-05-09 10:47 -0500
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2022-05-09 19:33 +0300
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) olcott <NoOne@NoWhere.com> - 2022-05-09 11:36 -0500
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2022-05-09 20:17 -0400
                Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) olcott <polcott2@gmail.com> - 2022-05-07 11:06 -0500
  Re: On recursion and infinite recursion (reprise #3) Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> - 2022-05-06 16:39 +0300

csiph-web