Re: Can this program be improved?

From	Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Can this program be improved?
Date	2021-12-29 16:09 -0800
Organization	None to speak of
Message-ID	<87o84z2bsi.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> (permalink)
References	(1 earlier) <sq6b3t$ce5$1@dont-email.me> <sqi3p9$1bia$1@gioia.aioe.org> <sqi72e$q7e$1@dont-email.me> <87sfub2g2t.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com> <sqiprq$1kk$1@dont-email.me>

Show all headers | View raw

Bart <bc@freeuk.com> writes:
> On 29/12/2021 22:37, Keith Thompson wrote:
>> Bart <bc@freeuk.com> writes:
>> [...]
>>> 3) Double is perfectly suitable for representing monetary amounts,
>>> especially in a toy program or for personal use. (I've used it for
>>> accounts within a small business.)
>> In a toy program, sure -- and I'd say *only* in a toy program.
>> Using floating-point for money risks, at best, rare off-by-one
>> errors,
>> such as a computation yielding a result one cent off from the correct
>> value.  I believe that would be considered unacceptable in any
>> real-world financial application.
>
> Real-world doesn't need to mean dealing with trillions of dollars to
> the exact cent.

But it can mean dealing with thousands of dollars to the exact cent --
and if you get a result of $1234.565001 and round it to $1234.57, when
the rules call for a result of $1234.56, that could be a serious problem.

> Most businesses work with amounts far smaller. Then I believe the
> precision of float64 is enough to emulate the needed rounding methods.

Working with smaller amounts just means that errors like this are rarer,
not that they don't happen.

> (But I didn't even bother with that. My app anyway had to work with
> multliple parallel currencies so if an amount was correct to the
> nearest cent on one, it couldn't also be correct in another. But the
> environment was also fairly informal.)

If "fairly informal" means you don't need results accurate to the cent,
then floating-point might be good enough.  But financial institutions
can't afford that.

>>> But what exactly would be a practical alternative here? To import a
>>> decimal float library, or somehow work with int64 whole cents? (Good
>>> luck with interest calculations with that.)
>> If you only need to do calculations that yield whole numbers of
>> cents,
>> then yes, you can use a wide integer (long long or uint64_t, for
>> example, or define your own type "in64" if you insist for some reason)
>> with a scaling factor of 100.  If you need to do interest calculations
>> in the real world (not in a toy program), you need to find out the exact
>> rules for those calculations and implement them.
>
> I wouldn't know where to start to apply an interest rate specified to
> multiple decimals, to an integer amount, to yield an integer result.

Neither would I.  My understanding is that there are precisely stated
rules that tell you exactly what results a given computation must
produce, for example when computing compound interest.  If you're going
to be writing real-world software, where satisfying those rules is a
requirement, you *must* learn those rules first.  (I haven't done so and
probably won't.)

>> [...]
>> 
>>> 5) I can't see an issue in using pow() to do pow(float,int); the
>>> result will not be exact anyway. What is the alternate, to invent a
>>> local powint(float,int) routine? Which will probably contain a
>>> loop. Or change the logic for an accumulative product. pow() is
>>> simpler!
>> Integer exponentiation can be done exactly (assuming no overflow).
>> pow() can suffer floating-point errors.  Whether pow() is acceptable
>> depends on the application and the financial rules governing it.
>
> This is integer exponentation of floating point values. The choice is
> between repeated multiplications, or calling pow().
>
> The latter is likely done with logs and exp() which can introduce
> errors, but if I calculate 3% compound interest monthly over about 80 
> years, then the results of:
>
>    1.03 * 1.03 * ...           // 1000 times
>
> and:
>
>    pow(1.03, 1000)
>
> differ only in the 16th significant digit.

And if that difference in the 16th significant digit happens to
give you a result that's off by one cent after rounding, that's
a problem -- unless your environment is "fairly informal" and you
don't mind sometimes being off by a cent.

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
Working, but not speaking, for Philips
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */

Thread

Can this program be improved? Manu Raju <MR@invalid.invalid> - 2021-12-25 01:00 +0000
  Re: Can this program be improved? Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2021-12-24 21:44 -0800
    Re: Can this program be improved? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-12-25 12:56 +0100
    Re: Can this program be improved? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-12-25 11:13 -0800
    Re: Can this program be improved? Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2021-12-25 23:50 +0100
    Re: Can this program be improved? Manu Raju <MR@invalid.invalid> - 2021-12-26 18:52 +0000
      Re: Can this program be improved? Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-12-26 19:22 +0000
        Re: Can this program be improved? Manu Raju <MR@invalid.invalid> - 2021-12-26 21:30 +0000
          Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-12-26 22:02 +0000
          Re: Can this program be improved? Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2021-12-26 18:24 -0500
          Re: Can this program be improved? Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-12-27 00:47 +0000
    Re: Can this program be improved? Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2021-12-29 17:52 +0100
      Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-12-29 17:49 +0000
        Re: Can this program be improved? Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2021-12-29 11:33 -0800
          Re: Can this program be improved? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-12-29 22:45 -0500
            Re: Can this program be improved? Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2021-12-30 00:35 -0800
              Re: Can this program be improved? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2021-12-30 10:19 +0100
          Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-01-01 18:19 +0000
            Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-01-01 19:33 +0000
        Re: Can this program be improved? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-12-29 14:37 -0800
          Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-12-29 23:09 +0000
            Re: Can this program be improved? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-12-29 23:54 +0000
              Re: Can this program be improved? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-12-29 16:11 -0800
              Re: Can this program be improved? Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2021-12-30 00:34 +0000
                Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-12-30 12:49 +0000
                Re: Can this program be improved? Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2021-12-30 21:04 +0000
                Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-12-31 02:13 +0000
            Re: Can this program be improved? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-12-29 16:09 -0800
              Re: Can this program be improved? Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2021-12-30 00:59 +0000
                Re: Can this program be improved? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-12-29 17:48 -0800
                Re: Can this program be improved? Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2021-12-30 20:47 +0000
              Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-12-30 01:06 +0000
                Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-12-30 04:48 -0800
                Re: Can this program be improved? Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2021-12-30 18:16 +0100
                Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-12-31 02:20 +0000
                Re: Can this program be improved? Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2021-12-31 18:25 +0100
                Re: Can this program be improved? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-12-31 18:13 -0500
                Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-12-31 23:59 +0000
                Re: Can this program be improved? "james...@alumni.caltech.edu" <jameskuyper@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2021-12-31 16:20 -0800
                Re: Can this program be improved? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-12-31 16:35 -0800
                Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-01-01 00:53 +0000
                Re: Can this program be improved? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-12-31 20:22 -0800
                Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-12-31 22:04 -0800
                Re: Can this program be improved? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-01-01 14:59 -0800
                Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-02 17:22 -0800
                Re: Can this program be improved? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-01-02 20:49 -0800
                Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-03 03:09 -0800
                Re: Can this program be improved? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-01-03 16:22 +0000
                Re: Can this program be improved? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-01-03 14:42 -0800
                Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-03 14:52 -0800
                Re: Can this program be improved? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2022-01-03 22:58 +0000
                Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-04 04:27 -0800
                Re: Can this program be improved? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2022-01-04 13:39 +0000
                Re: Can this program be improved? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-01-04 00:18 +0100
                Re: Can this program be improved? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-01-03 15:24 -0800
                Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-03 15:43 -0800
                Re: Can this program be improved? Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2022-01-03 21:19 -0800
                Re: Can this program be improved? Mateusz Viste <mateusz@xyz.invalid> - 2022-01-04 09:23 +0100
                Re: Can this program be improved? Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2022-01-04 18:18 +0100
                Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-04 10:35 -0800
                Re: Can this program be improved? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-01-04 14:07 -0800
                Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-04 15:11 -0800
                Re: Can this program be improved? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2022-01-04 15:47 -0800
                Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-04 18:30 -0800
                Re: Can this program be improved? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-01-04 23:46 +0000
                Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-01-04 18:41 +0000
                Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-04 10:52 -0800
                Re: Can this program be improved? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-01-04 19:00 +0000
                Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-04 11:15 -0800
                Re: Can this program be improved? Guillaume <message@bottle.org> - 2022-01-04 21:57 +0100
                Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-01-04 21:02 +0000
                Re: Can this program be improved? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-01-04 21:38 +0000
                Re: Can this program be improved? Manfred <noname@add.invalid> - 2022-01-04 23:01 +0100
                Re: Can this program be improved? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-01-04 09:31 +0100
                Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-04 01:30 -0800
                Re: Can this program be improved? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-01-04 14:55 +0100
                Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-04 06:21 -0800
                Re: Can this program be improved? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-01-04 16:49 +0100
                Re: Can this program be improved? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2022-01-04 15:56 +0000
                Re: Can this program be improved? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2022-01-04 15:03 +0000
                Re: Can this program be improved? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2022-01-03 22:54 +0000
                Re: Can this program be improved? Mateusz Viste <mateusz@xyz.invalid> - 2022-01-03 09:22 +0100
                Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-03 03:30 -0800
                Re: Can this program be improved? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2022-01-03 17:22 +0100
                Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-03 08:48 -0800
                Re: Can this program be improved? Mateusz Viste <mateusz@xyz.invalid> - 2022-01-03 18:42 +0100
                Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-01-03 17:59 +0000
                Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-03 11:09 -0800
                Re: Can this program be improved? Mateusz Viste <mateusz@xyz.invalid> - 2022-01-03 20:32 +0100
                Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2022-01-03 11:58 -0800
                Re: Can this program be improved? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2022-01-03 18:13 +0000
                Re: Can this program be improved? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2022-01-03 20:05 +0000
                Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2022-01-01 16:53 +0000
          Re: Can this program be improved? Kaz Kylheku <480-992-1380@kylheku.com> - 2021-12-30 00:29 +0000
  Re: Can this program be improved? Bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2021-12-25 12:47 +0000
    Re: Can this program be improved? Manu Raju <MR@invalid.invalid> - 2021-12-26 18:56 +0000
  Re: Can this program be improved? Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-12-25 17:38 +0000
    Re: Can this program be improved? Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2021-12-25 10:58 -0800
      Re: Can this program be improved? Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-12-25 19:16 +0000
        Re: Can this program be improved? Öö Tiib <ootiib@hot.ee> - 2021-12-25 11:25 -0800
      Re: Can this program be improved? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-12-25 15:01 -0800
        Re: Can this program be improved? Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-12-25 23:09 +0000
          Re: Can this program be improved? "Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> - 2021-12-25 20:56 -0800
    Re: Can this program be improved? scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2021-12-25 19:30 +0000
      Re: Can this program be improved? Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> - 2021-12-25 15:50 -0800
        Re: Can this program be improved? Manu Raju <MR@invalid.invalid> - 2021-12-26 19:02 +0000
    Re: Can this program be improved? Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2021-12-25 11:53 -0800
    Re: Can this program be improved? Manu Raju <MR@invalid.invalid> - 2021-12-26 19:00 +0000
  Re: Can this program be improved? Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> - 2021-12-25 11:22 -0800
    Re: Can this program be improved? Manu Raju <MR@invalid.invalid> - 2021-12-26 19:01 +0000
  Re: Can this program be improved? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> - 2021-12-25 13:27 -0800
    Re: Can this program be improved? Andrey Tarasevich <andreytarasevich@hotmail.com> - 2021-12-25 16:06 -0800
  Re: Can this program be improved? Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2021-12-29 15:21 +0000

csiph-web