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Groups > comp.arch.embedded > #20493

Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl? Lua? Thoughts? Suggestions?

From Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid>
Newsgroups comp.arch.embedded
Subject Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl? Lua? Thoughts? Suggestions?
Date 2015-03-14 22:20 -0700
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <87lhiyu99i.fsf@jester.gateway.sonic.net> (permalink)
References <kdCdnY1enJGty57InZ2dnUU7-VOdnZ2d@giganews.com> <951agalj4iglmlroguhea2ctqtm52g28bt@4ax.com>

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George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> writes:
> Javacard also has no GC - applets have to request heap space at
> startup and manage it (if they are so inclined) themselves.

GC is present in some Javacard devices.  Maybe more of a problem is that
I don't think Javacard is open source.

> TCL will look weird to many people.... I can't comment on it's minimum
> RAM needs.

I checked into this yesterday and tcl these days has gotten rather
bloated.  The "small footprint" version is 100k-200k of code:

  http://jim.tcl.tk/index.html/doc/www/www/index.html

I used an embedded tcl several versions back and it was smaller then,
but people probably expect the recent improvements.

> If you have a little more [well, 3x] space I'd mention TCC.
> Have you looked at PicoC ?  https://code.google.com/p/picoc/

It doesn't sound like there's much need to host the compiler on the
embedded board, and using C defeats a main benefit of scripting
languages, which is to supply automatic memory management and protect
the user from the usual C hazards like pointer errors causing memory
corruption.

I do see there are some Scheme implementations around with mighty small
ram requirements, e.g. http://armpit.sourceforge.net/ (scroll down the
page) discusses some targets with as little as 32k of flash and 8k of
ram.  It is written in ARM assembler though, making me wonder if it has
a reasonable C FFI.

https://github.com/ryansuchocki/microscheme might also be interesting:
someone just pointed it out to me and I haven't looked at it much yet.

For simple purposes like UI customization, Scheme is probably ok for
non-Schemers since they can probably get their stuff working by copying
and modifying existing examples.  There are also lots of books on
Scheme.  So it seems worth looking into these if Lua turns out to be too
large.

I looked at Tiny Scheme which is a well known small implementation
(about 40k), but its ram footprint looks rather large, maybe since it
uses a recursive S-expression evaluator instead of a VM.

I'm a fan of Hedgehog Lisp which has an offline compiler and a very
compact VM (about 20k), but it's a weird dialect with almost no users.
Sometimes I think of hacking it to be more compatible with Scheme, and
maybe adding alternative front end to it.  For a while I thought using
its VM as a runtime for a Haskell dialect for microcontrollers that I
wanted to call "Control-H", so that the file extension would be a
backspace character.  ;-)

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Thread

Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2015-03-13 16:27 -0500
  Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-03-13 15:03 -0700
    Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2015-03-13 19:04 -0500
      Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> - 2015-03-18 02:34 -0400
        Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2015-03-18 12:37 +0000
    Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Tim Wescott <seemywebsite@myfooter.really> - 2015-03-13 19:06 -0500
      Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-03-13 18:14 -0700
  Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl? Lua? Thoughts? Suggestions? Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2015-03-13 22:30 +0000
  Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-03-14 00:48 +0100
    Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-13 19:45 -0700
      Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-03-15 23:01 +0100
  Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? mroberds@att.net - 2015-03-14 00:28 +0000
    Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-03-13 18:45 -0700
      Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2015-03-14 13:14 +1100
        Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-03-13 20:35 -0700
          Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2015-03-14 23:59 -0400
            Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-03-14 22:30 -0700
              Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2015-03-15 21:44 -0400
                Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-03-15 20:09 -0700
        Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2015-03-14 23:59 -0400
          Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-03-16 15:42 -0700
            Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2015-03-17 04:25 -0400
              Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-03-17 10:39 -0700
                Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2015-03-17 17:06 -0400
                Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-03-17 19:36 -0700
                Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2015-03-18 01:50 -0400
                Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-03-17 23:32 -0700
                Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-03-18 05:30 -0500
                Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-03-18 10:32 -0700
                Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-03-18 16:11 -0500
                Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-03-18 18:26 -0700
                Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2015-03-19 02:09 -0400
                Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-03-19 12:04 -0700
                Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2015-03-19 17:52 -0400
                Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-03-19 15:44 -0700
                Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2015-03-20 02:38 -0400
                Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-03-20 10:05 +0100
                Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-03-20 02:51 -0700
                Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-03-20 11:49 +0100
                Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-03-20 05:12 -0700
                Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-03-20 14:55 +0100
                Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-03-20 15:07 -0700
                Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2015-03-20 14:11 -0400
                Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-03-20 15:20 -0700
                Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2015-03-22 09:28 -0400
                OT:  EoL Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-03-22 12:19 -0700
                Re: OT:  EoL Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2015-03-23 07:30 +0800
                Re: OT:  EoL Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-03-22 17:19 -0700
                Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-03-20 02:12 -0700
                Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Mel Wilson <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2015-03-20 13:24 +0000
                Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-03-20 10:20 -0700
                Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2015-03-22 08:12 -0400
                OT: senses Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-03-22 13:53 -0700
        Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Wouter van Ooijen <wouter@voti.nl> - 2015-03-15 10:11 +0100
      Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? mroberds@att.net - 2015-03-14 07:50 +0000
        Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Mel Wilson <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2015-03-14 12:24 +0000
        Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> - 2015-03-14 11:46 -0700
          Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2015-03-14 23:58 -0400
  Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net> - 2015-03-14 12:59 +1100
  Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-13 20:16 -0700
    Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> - 2015-03-13 23:20 -0500
      Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-13 22:29 -0700
        Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-13 22:46 -0700
      Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Stefan Reuther <stefan.news@arcor.de> - 2015-03-14 11:02 +0100
    Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Anders.Montonen@kapsi.spam.stop.fi.invalid - 2015-03-16 11:37 +0000
      Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-16 13:53 -0700
  Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-03-14 03:16 -0500
  Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2015-03-14 10:27 +0200
  Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2015-03-14 08:43 +0000
    Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2015-03-14 13:55 +0200
      Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Paul E Bennett <Paul_E.Bennett@topmail.co.uk> - 2015-03-14 12:14 +0000
      Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-03-14 18:04 +0000
        Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> - 2015-03-14 23:14 +0200
  Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Allan Herriman <allanherriman@hotmail.com> - 2015-03-14 10:08 +0000
  Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2015-03-15 00:55 -0400
    Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-14 22:20 -0700
      Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> - 2015-03-15 20:35 -0400
        Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-15 18:47 -0700
  Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? stephen@mpeforth.com (Stephen Pelc) - 2015-03-18 10:03 +0000
  Re: Embedded Scripting -- Tcl?  Lua?  Thoughts?  Suggestions? Matthias Koch <matthias.koch@hot.uni-hannover.de> - 2015-03-19 12:02 +0100

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