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| From | Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.c |
| Subject | Re: A Note on Readability |
| Date | 2015-05-28 12:55 -0700 |
| Organization | None to speak of |
| Message-ID | <87egm0lbnw.fsf@kst-u.example.com> (permalink) |
| References | (16 earlier) <c50a33a2-0dc7-43c0-aec9-03db5aa1a5e5@googlegroups.com> <87twuzmaca.fsf@kst-u.example.com> <4175e1ca-0317-4f15-bcb8-0c0f8ac1cc9a@googlegroups.com> <mk4tpi$u87$1@dont-email.me> <49850ea6-3141-4015-9e8c-b8b9e92a7728@googlegroups.com> |
David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> writes:
> On Wednesday, May 27, 2015 at 10:11:29 AM UTC-7, Richard Heathfield wrote:
>> On 27/05/15 17:58, David Kleinecke wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> > Let the lawyering begin.
>> >
>> > The standard does not explicitly address the question of implementor
>> > defined pre-defined macros (or I haven't found such a passage yet).
>> > So we have to guess what it should have said.
>>
>> No need to guess. 4.6: "A conforming implementation may have extensions
>> (including additional library functions), provided they do not alter the
>> behavior of any strictly conforming program."
>>
>> A strictly conforming program must not define any identifier that begins
>> with an underscore and an upper case letter, or with two consecutive
>> underscores. (See 7.1.3 Reserved Identifiers.)
>>
>> So an implementation is free to provide pre-defined macros that begin
>> with __ or _[A-Z], because such macros cannot possibly alter the
>> behaviour of a strictly conforming program.
>>
>> > You take the position that it implicitly allows them. I take the position
>> > that if it had intended to allow them it would have said so.
>>
>> It said so. It just used different words to the ones you were expecting.
>>
>> >
>> > I see no way to resolve this dilemma.
>>
>> Read the Standard with an open mind, and you'll see it.
>>
>> > PS: This question is quite independent of the question about the shape
>> > of the names of these macros.
>>
>> No, it isn't. Implementations are only free to provide macros because
>> there is a way to define them that doesn't affect strictly conforming
>> programs, and that is only possible because strictly conforming programs
>> must follow the rules for reserved identifiers.
>
> Excellent lawyering.
>
> The standard does not define extensions (other than additional library
> funtions) so I think 4.6 is moot.
I think the meaning of the word "extensions" is clear enough: features
not specified by the standard. No, 4.6 is not moot. Just one example:
gcc implements binary integer constants like 0b11001001; that's clearly
an extension within the meaning of 4.6. gcc's statement expressions are
nother example.
> But, anyway that's not all the C90 standard says (all of clause 4):
[snip]
> An implementation shall be accompanied by a document that defines
> all implementation defined characteristics and all extensions.
> </quote>
>
> I like that last sentence. I think (because "shall" has not been
> explicitly defined) that every implementation must be accompanied
> by such a document. I've never seen one. Do any exist?
In C90, the first paragraph of section 3 discusses the meanings of
"shall" and "shall not". The definition of "undefined behavior" in 3.16
discusses it further.
Yes, such documents do exist, as they must for any conforming C
implementation. For example, it's section 4 of the gcc manual, which
includes references to other documentation.
> Assuming no such documents exist I think I can easily not take the
> standard seriously as I have been.
Your assumption is incorrect. You conclusion is correct; you are not
required to take the standard seriously at all. You're free to ignore
it completely if you like.
And yet you continue to discuss it here.
> The footnote to the second paragraph requires only "explicity"
> reserved identifiers to used in a conforming implementation.
> In C90, using the 7.1.3 definition there are exactly three explicitly
> reserved identifiers - "_IOFBF", "_IOLBF" and "_IONBF". But that
> depends on how one understands "explicitly". 7.1.3 defines many more
> reserved identifiers but, as I use the word, not "explicitly".
>
> Looking at 7.1.3 I see several implict references to 7.13 "Future
> library directions". I think this is relevant to any understanding
> of what "reserved" means but I don't see how it all fits together.
The standard doesn't have to list every reserved identifier individually
for them to be "explicitly reserved". All identifiers starting with two
underscores, or with an underscore and an uppercase letter, are reserved
(as are some others). The standard is quite explicit about that.
--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst-u@mib.org <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
Working, but not speaking, for JetHead Development, Inc.
"We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this."
-- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"
Back to comp.lang.c | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread
A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-06 18:54 -0700
A Note on Readability asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-05-06 23:08 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-05-07 07:34 +0100
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-07 12:22 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-05-17 10:50 +0000
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-17 09:40 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-05-17 18:06 +0100
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 10:38 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-18 14:07 -0400
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 10:07 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-19 11:23 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-20 08:41 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-05-20 09:03 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-05-20 12:09 -0500
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-21 09:08 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-05-20 17:15 +0100
Re: A Note on Readability Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-05-20 12:10 -0500
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-21 08:58 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-05-21 17:33 +0000
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-22 09:47 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-05-20 12:08 -0500
Re: A Note on Readability James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-20 13:43 -0400
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-20 10:59 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-05-20 18:05 -0500
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-20 17:36 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-05-20 22:12 -0500
Re: A Note on Readability Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2015-05-20 20:34 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-05-21 04:39 +0000
Re: A Note on Readability Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2015-05-21 17:41 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2015-05-21 01:14 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-21 09:26 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-21 10:33 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-22 09:42 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-22 11:53 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-23 10:01 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-23 14:53 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-24 09:18 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-24 13:13 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 09:38 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-25 12:40 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-26 10:56 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-26 12:35 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 10:08 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-27 11:07 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-27 20:17 -0500
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 09:56 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-25 13:05 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-26 09:58 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-05-26 18:16 +0100
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-26 10:55 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-26 12:11 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-26 12:01 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 09:58 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-05-27 18:11 +0100
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-28 12:11 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-28 12:55 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-29 10:08 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-06-01 18:54 +0100
Re: A Note on Readability Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-10 11:29 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-11 09:06 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-11 13:42 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-12 09:20 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-12 11:24 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-13 08:48 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-13 12:38 -0400
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-13 10:34 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-13 14:43 -0400
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-13 12:18 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-13 15:27 -0400
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-14 08:45 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-14 09:05 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-14 09:41 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-14 10:26 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-15 19:59 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-14 12:25 -0400
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-13 13:46 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-07-14 08:33 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-13 11:17 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-07-13 21:06 -0400
Re: A Note on Readability James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-07-13 22:38 -0400
Re: A Note on Readability Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-07-15 08:19 -0400
Re: A Note on Readability Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-20 09:10 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-07-13 11:00 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-15 08:11 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-27 10:57 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-24 09:51 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-24 13:36 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 10:00 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-25 13:05 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2015-05-24 16:43 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-24 09:57 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-24 13:37 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-25 10:14 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-25 13:11 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-26 10:26 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-05-26 18:38 +0100
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-26 12:24 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-27 10:06 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-27 11:05 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-26 10:38 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-05-24 07:01 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-24 09:58 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2015-05-25 00:45 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-07-10 11:09 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-21 09:04 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-21 10:36 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-22 09:56 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-05-22 12:16 -0500
Re: A Note on Readability James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-22 14:14 -0400
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-23 09:49 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-22 11:55 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-22 11:58 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-20 10:26 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-18 11:08 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-19 10:09 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-05-18 20:40 +0100
Re: A Note on Readability James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-17 14:34 -0400
Re: A Note on Readability David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-05-18 10:40 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-05-18 11:18 -0700
Re: A Note on Readability James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-18 14:33 -0400
Re: A Note on Readability Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-05-18 20:44 +0100
Re: A Note on Readability James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-05-18 16:07 -0400
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