Re: Is it possible C is the security problem?

From	Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: Is it possible C is the security problem?
Date	2015-11-20 01:38 +0000
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<87egflsb52.fsf@bsb.me.uk> (permalink)
References	(14 earlier) <da87334d-7682-4496-8a89-6f4733048c1a@googlegroups.com> <87fv03vvn6.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <76925f7b-9932-4086-b7ff-aeed34fc5ccd@googlegroups.com> <8737w2un35.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <373faa1b-005d-40ae-baee-1b7f1f9021a7@googlegroups.com>

Show all headers | View raw

Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> writes:

> On Thursday, November 19, 2015 at 1:37:52 PM UTC, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> writes:
>> 
>> > On Wednesday, November 18, 2015 at 9:35:19 PM UTC, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> >> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> writes:
>> >> 
>> >> > By that, I mean that all the teams have several points
>> >> > (it only works halfway through the league). As they play
>> >> > games, obviously a team can gain three points, or one point,
>> >> > or no points, and can overtake rivals.
>> >> > But it's very unlikely that a team will move more than one
>> >> > or two places as the result of any one match.
>> >> > You get that sort of dataset quite a bit in real life.
>> >> 
>> >> Why not use insertion sort?  Bubble sort is not the only simple
>> >> algorithm to be good on partially sorted data, and I don't 
>> >> think it is ever the best.  Do you think otherwise?  If so, 
>> >> can you show some data?
>> >> 
>> > Bubble sort can terminate after a few passes if the data
>> > still isn't sorted.
>> 
>> Insertion sort performs better by all the simple measures: it's better
>> on array reads, on array writes and on compares.  It's better (or no
>> worse) than bubble sort in every case I've tested, and that includes
>> exhaustive testing of all permutations of small data sets.  These are
>> simple measures for sure; that's why I asked why you if you had data to
>> back up your advocacy for bubble sort -- it was possible you had better
>> data than I do.
>> 
>> > So if we've got a football league type
>> > dataset, with occasional shuffling catastrophes, we can
>> > resort to quicksort if our assumption that the data is
>> > nearly sorted is wrong.
>> > I haven't done any tests however.
>> 
>> So why are repeating this old canard?  Bad ideas won't die if everyone
>> just keeps repeating them.  On the other hand, I'd be very happy to find
>> a data set that makes bubble sort look like a good choice (I like to
>> learn new things), I just haven't ever found one.
>> 
>
> Here we go
<snip code>

> bubblesort    295985 comps 139240 swaps
> insertionsort 289045 comps 132878 swaps
> bubblesort    19998 comps 42 swaps
> insertionsort 10039 comps 40 swaps
> quicksort 126257 comps

Is this supposed to be data in support of your advice to use bubble
sort?  I don't see how it can be.

[By the way, insertion sort is better than this because the version that
uses swaps sometimes does the same amount of data moving as bubble sort.
(It's still better, mind you!)  Optimised implementations don't do
swaps.  An out of order element is "picked up", the inner loop runs
shifting (rather than swapping) the data as it goes, and the picked-up
element is put into the right place.]

> The trick is to know when to terminate the insertion sort, otherwise
> of course it performs catastrophically on the random order data.
> But bubble sort loses out because of the extra pass, even when it 
> can sort the data in one pass.

So why do you advise using it?

-- 
Ben.

Thread

Is it possible C is the security problem? G G <gdotone@gmail.com> - 2015-11-03 06:31 -0800
  Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-03 14:57 +0000
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-03 15:04 +0000
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? G G <gdotone@gmail.com> - 2015-11-03 07:11 -0800
      Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-03 15:25 +0000
        Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-03 20:13 +0000
          Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-11-03 15:18 -0500
          Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-03 20:34 +0000
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-03 22:47 +0000
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Udyant Wig <udyantw@gmail.com> - 2015-11-04 15:36 +0530
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-04 10:34 +0000
          Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-03 15:18 -0800
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-03 17:42 -0800
          Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-11-03 15:32 -0800
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-03 23:57 +0000
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Geoff <geoff@invalid.invalid> - 2015-11-03 21:13 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-04 07:22 +0000
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-04 11:32 +0100
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-04 10:54 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-04 13:38 +0100
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-07 08:27 +0000
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-05 09:26 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-05 10:03 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-11-05 08:53 -0500
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-06 10:04 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Reinhardt Behm <rbehm@hushmail.com> - 2015-11-05 21:06 +0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-05 11:14 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-05 11:44 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-07 02:43 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-07 17:30 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-11-10 16:35 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-11-10 11:52 -0500
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-11 00:48 -0600
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-11-17 21:55 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-17 19:14 -0600
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-18 03:40 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-17 23:01 -0600
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-18 09:00 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-18 09:09 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-18 15:35 -0600
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-18 21:35 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-18 20:38 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-19 05:40 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-18 22:55 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-19 19:56 +1300
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-18 23:40 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-19 21:05 +1300
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-19 06:40 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-11-19 11:37 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-11-19 12:09 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-19 12:52 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-20 12:20 +1300
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-19 15:34 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-22 16:43 +1300
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-21 21:28 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-22 20:51 +1300
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-22 07:26 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-22 09:42 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-22 09:59 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-23 07:08 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-23 11:57 +1300
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-22 16:06 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-23 13:26 +1300
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-19 09:09 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-20 02:29 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-11-20 12:33 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-20 09:26 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-19 13:37 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-19 14:07 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-20 01:38 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-19 18:43 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-20 12:09 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-20 01:48 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-20 11:16 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-20 05:04 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-20 18:18 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-20 11:55 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-21 00:27 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-20 18:57 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-20 19:50 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-20 20:06 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-20 20:46 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-20 20:56 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-21 04:58 -0600
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-21 04:59 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-21 13:26 -0600
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-11-21 14:38 -0500
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-21 06:49 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-20 22:56 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-21 04:36 -0600
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-21 06:44 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-21 15:59 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-21 18:33 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-21 19:19 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-21 13:33 -0600
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-22 14:42 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-22 14:17 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-20 14:51 +1300
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-19 08:06 -0600
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-18 15:40 -0600
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-20 13:57 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-21 06:56 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-23 03:16 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-23 22:28 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-23 21:11 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-24 10:29 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-25 02:38 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-27 13:54 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-10 10:23 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-10 11:21 -0800
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-11-04 00:58 +0100
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-11-03 18:26 -0600
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-04 02:06 +0000
          Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-04 14:12 +1300
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-04 07:02 +0000
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-04 20:42 +1300
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-04 08:06 +0000
          Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-04 11:25 +0100
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-04 11:49 +0000
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-04 13:46 +0100
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-11-17 21:58 +0000
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-17 23:37 +0100
        Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2015-12-06 07:55 -0500
          Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-12-06 14:23 -0600
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-03 15:59 +0000
      Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-03 16:55 +0000
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? see.my.homepage@gmail.com - 2015-11-04 02:29 -0800
      Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-04 10:48 +0000
        Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? see.my.homepage@gmail.com - 2015-11-04 14:11 -0800
          Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-05 00:39 +0000
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-05 01:15 +0000
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-05 02:02 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-04 18:31 -0800
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-05 12:38 +0000
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-04 18:24 -0800
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-04 19:37 -0800
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-05 13:24 +0100
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-05 06:47 -0800
            Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? see.my.homepage@gmail.com - 2015-11-05 00:35 -0800
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-05 09:55 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? see.my.homepage@gmail.com - 2015-11-05 05:02 -0800
              Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-11-06 10:18 +0000
                Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? see.my.homepage@gmail.com - 2015-11-06 05:57 -0800
      Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-11-04 08:32 -0500
  Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-03 15:01 +0000
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-03 15:10 +0000
  Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-11-03 11:02 -0500
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-03 18:13 +0000
      Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2015-11-03 15:16 -0500
        Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-04 09:38 +0000
      Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-04 11:38 +0100
  Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-11-03 11:58 -0500
  Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-03 09:13 -0800
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2015-11-03 18:08 +0000
      Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Nobody <nobody@nowhere.invalid> - 2015-11-04 04:49 +0000
        Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-04 02:22 -0800
        Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2015-11-04 13:28 +0000
        Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-04 08:39 -0800
  Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? John Bode <jfbode1029@gmail.com> - 2015-11-03 10:45 -0800
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-03 11:05 -0800
  Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? Les Cargill <lcargill99@comcast.com> - 2015-11-03 18:09 -0600
  Is it possible C is the security problem? Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2015-11-04 01:15 -0800
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2015-11-04 13:31 +0000
  Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? G G <gdotone@gmail.com> - 2015-11-18 10:55 -0800
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-11-18 14:05 -0500
      Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? "D. Aaron Sawyer" <aaron@110.net> - 2015-11-18 19:47 -0500
    Re: Is it possible C is the security problem? raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-11-20 10:43 +0000

csiph-web