Re: sizeof(arr[0])

From	Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.c
Subject	Re: sizeof(arr[0])
Date	2015-06-17 10:58 +0100
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<874mm6wt9i.fsf@bsb.me.uk> (permalink)
References	(11 earlier) <d880c856-c620-47d3-b70f-c2fbe753c5a3@googlegroups.com> <87h9q7y0y0.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <e9818bab-4b08-44d1-8223-327a0e954fcd@googlegroups.com> <87oakfwizs.fsf@bsb.me.uk> <8f872f45-ee8a-4ab8-a4af-b50f6a450929@googlegroups.com>

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"Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> writes:

> On Tuesday, June 16, 2015 at 3:28:32 PM UTC-4, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> writes:
>> > These operators take some input and return a value there in immediate
>> > context. They do so with a name and not a character or character set.
>> > And just because they don't go through runtime code is of no real
>> > difference to me because from a source code point of view I am giving
>> > sizeof some input, and it is giving me some output. As such ... function,
>> > just one that happens to be a compile-time function, rather than
>> > runtime.
>> 
>> Would it be fair, then, to say that it's just because sizeof is an
>> operator written using letters that you want to write it like a function
>> call?
>
> It's because of its operation, and because it's written using letters.
> I don't think of typedef as a function, for example, though I do think
> the syntax for typedef is confusing and I always find myself thinking
> my way through non-trivial typedefs rather than garnering their meaning
> at a glance.
>
> This would make more sense to me:
>
>     typedef (struct R_) R;
>     typedef (unsigned char) u8;
>
> Than this:
>
>     typedef struct R_ R;
>     typedef unsigned char u8;
>
> At a glance my brain isolates the components of the first, whereas I
> must read through the second, and it's just more difficult for me.
>
> As it is I use this to accomplish the same thing (a visual cue to
> help my brain isolate the two at a glance):
>
>     typedef    struct R_          R;
>     typedef    unsigned char      u8;
>
> It now automatically groups things into columns, more easily
> identifying subtle differences on each line.
>
>> For me, the very fact that it is so different to a function call is the
>> reason I've moved more and more towards not writing like one.
>
> I don't think it's really that different from a function call. I think
> it's only different when you don't use its function call-like syntax
> form, and then it's nothing like a function call, and, in my opinion,
> crosses the line into ambiguity land.
>
> I just like to see input and output. I don't like those things to have
> other meanings, but to be visualized mentally as real "machines" doing
> "real work."
>
>> >> > Enclosing in parentheses removes ambiguity and helps document
>> >> > exactly what's happening without needing to have a comprehensive
>> >> > understanding of the peculiarities of syntax on certain compiler
>> >> > keywords.
>> >> 
>> >> What possible ambiguity is there in return 42; that is dispelled by
>> >> writing return(42);?  (Or pick your own example if I've
>> >> over-simplified.)
>> >
>> > None.
>> 
>> OK, but you can see, I hope, why I might have thought otherwise.  You
>> said, after all, "Enclosing in parentheses removes ambiguity" so it not
>> unreasonable of me to think you though the ()s removed some ambiguity.
>
> I would argue that "return(42);" does remove ambiguity over "return
> 42;".

So your answer to "what possible ambiguity is there in return 42; that
is dispelled by writing return(42);" is "none", but you would, none the
less, "argue that return(42); does remove ambiguity over return 42;".

Do you mean that there is no ambiguity but, despite that, you would
argue that there was simply for the sake of arguing?

<snip>
>> Ah.  If you think of return as a function we are on different planets.
>
> Same planet.  Different points of view looking at the same thing.

The analogy is intended to highlight the great distance between these
vantage points.

<snip>
-- 
Ben.

Thread

sizeof(arr[0]) kuznecov.alexey@gmail.com - 2015-06-10 12:38 -0700
  Re: sizeof(arr[0]) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-06-10 16:00 -0400
    Re: sizeof(arr[0]) kuznecov.alexey@gmail.com - 2015-06-10 14:53 -0700
  Re: sizeof(arr[0]) kuznecov.alexey@gmail.com - 2015-06-10 13:11 -0700
  Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-06-10 21:21 +0100
    Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-06-10 22:08 +0100
      Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Andrew Cooper <amc96@cam.ac.uk> - 2015-06-11 00:27 +0100
        Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-06-11 00:34 +0100
          Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-06-11 00:38 +0100
          Re: writing code for people who don't know the language (was: sizeof(arr[0])) Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2015-06-10 21:16 -0400
          Re: writing code for people who don't know the language Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-06-11 02:35 +0100
            Re: writing code for people who don't know the language Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-11 11:16 +0100
          Re: writing code for people who don't know the language Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-11 11:29 +0100
            Re: writing code for people who don't know the language gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2015-06-11 11:43 +0000
          Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Paul N <gw7rib@aol.com> - 2015-06-14 13:13 -0700
            Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2015-06-14 17:52 -0700
          Re: sizeof(arr[0]) "Bill Cunningham" <nospam@nspam.invalid> - 2015-06-15 14:26 -0400
            Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-06-15 19:34 +0100
              Re: sizeof(arr[0]) "Bill Cunningham" <nospam@nspam.invalid> - 2015-06-15 14:55 -0400
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Melzzzzz <melz@zzzzz.com> - 2015-06-15 20:59 +0200
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-06-15 20:11 +0100
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) "Bill Cunningham" <nospam@nspam.invalid> - 2015-06-15 15:22 -0400
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-06-16 09:51 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-06-16 10:51 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-06-16 19:14 +0100
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-06-16 11:43 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-06-16 20:03 +0100
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-06-16 19:15 +0100
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-06-16 11:34 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-06-16 20:28 +0100
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-06-16 15:42 -0400
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-06-16 13:35 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-06-16 16:59 -0400
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Dr Nick <nospam-4@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2015-06-16 22:05 +0100
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-06-16 14:27 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Dr Nick <nospam-4@temporary-address.org.uk> - 2015-06-17 07:07 +0100
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-06-17 01:22 +0100
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-06-16 19:45 +0000
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-06-16 13:03 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-06-17 10:58 +0100
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-06-17 05:58 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-06-17 15:46 +0100
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-06-17 08:14 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-06-17 17:58 +0100
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-06-17 10:07 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-06-17 10:09 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-06-17 10:46 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-06-17 11:13 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Nathan Wagner <nw@hydaspes.if.org> - 2015-06-18 07:14 +0000
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-06-18 09:54 +0200
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-06-18 05:19 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-06-17 10:53 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-06-17 11:17 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-06-17 13:59 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-06-18 13:41 +1200
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-06-18 10:04 +0200
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-06-16 13:18 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-06-16 21:30 +0100
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-06-16 13:53 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-06-16 13:43 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-06-16 21:52 +0100
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-06-16 14:01 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-06-16 23:49 +0200
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-06-16 14:58 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-06-17 14:10 +0200
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-06-17 13:20 +0100
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-06-16 14:16 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-06-16 14:39 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2015-06-16 18:38 +0000
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-06-16 11:45 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-06-16 13:22 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2015-06-16 21:25 +0000
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-06-16 11:05 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-06-16 14:15 -0400
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-06-17 10:07 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-06-17 11:16 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-06-18 10:22 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-06-18 10:42 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-06-18 11:41 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2015-06-16 00:12 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-06-16 10:12 +0100
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Philip Lantz <prl@canterey.us> - 2015-06-16 09:12 -0700
                Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-06-16 17:32 +0100
    Re: sizeof(arr[0]) kuznecov.alexey@gmail.com - 2015-06-10 14:56 -0700
      Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-06-10 23:53 +0100
      Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-11 00:33 +0100
        Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-06-11 00:37 +0100
  Re: sizeof(arr[0]) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-06-17 06:05 -0700
    [OT] The number 42 (was Re: sizeof(arr[0])) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-06-17 16:07 +0200
      Re: [OT] The number 42 (was Re: sizeof(arr[0])) "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-06-17 08:23 -0700
        Re: [OT] The number 42 (was Re: sizeof(arr[0])) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-06-18 10:21 +0200
      Re: [OT] The number 42 (was Re: sizeof(arr[0])) David Kleinecke <dkleinecke@gmail.com> - 2015-06-17 10:35 -0700
        Re: [OT] The number 42 (was Re: sizeof(arr[0])) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-06-18 10:18 +0200
          Re: [OT] The number 42 (was Re: sizeof(arr[0])) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-06-18 10:08 +0100
    Re: sizeof(arr[0]) Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-06-17 15:13 +0100
      Re: sizeof(arr[0]) raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-06-18 20:38 +0000

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