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Groups > comp.lang.c > #60508

Re: SAFEcode

From Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: SAFEcode
Date 2015-04-20 12:05 +0100
Organization A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID <871tjf6ovf.fsf@bsb.me.uk> (permalink)
References (16 earlier) <9937e438-7b95-4573-a760-efb828e862aa@googlegroups.com> <mh1697$49g$1@dont-email.me> <0734af4b-4b6e-44b5-9f8f-9fba8315e833@googlegroups.com> <mh291a$b2$1@dont-email.me> <bb060ce1-d2c3-4479-9297-78234efe5489@googlegroups.com>

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Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> writes:
<snip>
> Ok, so that's our working hypothesis. We have an enemy. Now if he
> could send us infinite bytes there would be no point - he can impose
> infinite costs on us. So there must be some upper limit to the
> amount of ammunition he can get his hands on.

This is not the right way to think about algorithms.  Infinite data is
always ruled out -- there is simply no point in considering it -- but
saying that the input is finite without bounding it is pretty much the
same thing.  We can't actually incur infinite costs, but the costs are
unbounded, and I am not aware of any situation where that distinction
matters.  When considering the worst case, as you seem to be here,
unbounded input will always force the analysis to consider only the
asymptotic behaviour.  You might as well talk of infinite input because
how bad the cost gets will be determined by a limit "an n goes to oo" --
saying that n can't get there is both obvious and immaterial.

> And we've said that
> the messages are human-composed English language text. So whether he's
> a lone wolf tapping away, he employs a bank of people, or he's
> downloaded all English-language texts from the internet, there's a
> limit.
> So if we grow a buffer, then he can send of messages of one or two
> bytes (depending on whether we allocate the one) and he imposes a
> cost of N * growth factor on us. But he won't do that, he'll
> send us the largest message he can, that is exactly one byte over
> the maximum we can allocate.

This is new information.  There is, it seems, a maximum we can allocate.
That did not seem to feature before.  What is the cost of an allocation
that we can't make?

> So we see that we always waste
> N *  (1  - growth factor) -1 bytes, where N is the size of his 
> attack. But we can't respond by making the growth factor tiny,
> because we've also got to sum the intermediate allocations we
> have made.

I can't square this with the idea that the attacker has sent a message
larger than the maximum we can allocate.  How do you calculate that cost
for a message that can't be allocated?

> So let's assume for the moment that we've restricted him to one
> attack. We can write an equation for our optimal strategy, given
> various values of N, agreed?

You have not been clear enough to be able to say.  What is a single
attack?  Sending one message of size N?  Sending one set of messages
whose total size is N?  And what is an optimal strategy?  You've hinted
that you mean one that minimises cost over some set of inputs, but now
you are using a worst-case model where optimal seems to mean minimising
the maximum cost (though in the case of a single attack being just one
message of know size they happen to be the same).

Even the phrase "an equation for our optimal strategy, given various
values of N" is ambiguous.  Is that an equation for one strategy that is
optimal for all the various given values, or an equation for a strategy
the is optimal for each?  The latter is obvious (so much so that I doubt
you mean it) but the former looks so hard (and is dependent on the kind of
optimal you mean) that I can't believe you mean it either.

I think you should formalise the model a lot more.  Then there might be
some hope of mutual understanding.

> Then we'll open it out, and see if we can go any further. Can we
> work out an optimal strategy, given that we don't know N?

-- 
Ben.

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Thread

Re: SAFEcode Robbie Hatley <see.my.sig@for.my.address> - 2015-04-14 00:14 -0700
  Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-14 10:33 +0200
    Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-14 02:01 -0700
      Re: SAFEcode Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-14 10:23 +0100
      Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-14 11:49 +0200
        Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-14 04:31 -0700
          Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-14 14:54 +0200
            Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-14 06:39 -0700
              Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-14 16:10 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-14 08:11 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-14 23:58 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-15 01:25 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-15 11:11 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-15 02:35 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-15 13:52 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-15 06:04 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-15 08:08 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-15 08:57 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-15 18:24 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-15 09:45 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-04-15 19:09 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-15 22:29 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-16 08:23 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-16 10:44 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-16 11:22 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-19 15:33 +0000
                Re: SAFEcode Steve Thompson <stevet810@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 04:38 +0000
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-16 14:12 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-17 09:28 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-17 09:33 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-17 02:08 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-17 09:43 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-17 08:04 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-17 17:08 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-04-17 08:07 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-15 12:29 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-15 22:56 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-16 10:29 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-16 04:46 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-16 13:08 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-16 08:42 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-16 16:47 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-16 16:53 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-16 10:52 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-16 22:11 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-17 10:22 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-17 02:17 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-17 05:56 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-17 04:37 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-17 10:04 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-17 08:38 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-17 20:52 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-18 13:16 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-18 04:22 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-18 14:08 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-18 06:00 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-18 21:42 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-18 17:47 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-19 00:11 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-19 12:52 +0000
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-19 09:10 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-19 07:21 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-19 12:54 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-19 11:18 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-20 09:58 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-20 08:09 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-20 13:06 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-19 07:32 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-19 09:03 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-19 16:30 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-19 12:58 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-19 05:37 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-18 08:00 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-18 19:28 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-18 09:37 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-19 11:37 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-19 09:56 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-04-22 15:49 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-22 18:13 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-04-28 12:46 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-20 16:50 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-17 10:31 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-17 21:09 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-17 19:01 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-18 15:18 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-18 09:00 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-18 21:52 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-19 00:02 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-04-19 00:40 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-19 03:52 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-04-21 09:02 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-19 12:58 +0000
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-19 07:25 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-19 15:51 +0000
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-19 23:22 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-19 16:26 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-20 00:48 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-20 09:15 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-20 00:39 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-20 10:33 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-20 01:55 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-20 11:28 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-20 02:39 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-20 12:35 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-20 03:58 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-20 13:37 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-20 06:04 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-20 15:37 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-20 06:52 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-20 16:23 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-20 07:32 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-20 22:42 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-20 21:56 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-21 09:21 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-21 01:00 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-21 10:37 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-21 01:59 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-21 12:21 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-21 03:45 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-21 10:05 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-21 12:14 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-21 08:18 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-21 08:51 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-22 09:44 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-22 01:38 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-22 03:45 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-22 02:13 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-22 04:29 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-22 03:29 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-22 10:30 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-22 09:13 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-22 13:03 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-22 11:38 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-22 15:25 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-22 21:49 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-22 16:17 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-22 22:33 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-22 16:56 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-23 09:24 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-23 02:25 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> - 2015-04-23 08:24 -0400
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-23 06:18 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.lists@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-23 14:47 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-23 07:16 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-23 17:20 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-23 08:44 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-25 10:14 +0000
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-25 04:04 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-25 12:22 +0000
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-25 10:53 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-23 16:48 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-24 12:49 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.lists@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-23 20:40 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-23 13:03 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-23 23:49 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-24 01:07 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.lists@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-24 11:51 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-24 04:29 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-24 13:20 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-24 06:48 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-25 10:16 +0000
                Re: SAFEcode Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-24 15:48 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-24 10:05 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-24 22:59 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-26 00:16 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-24 04:39 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-24 22:59 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-23 08:17 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-22 16:49 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-22 17:01 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-04-22 17:51 -0400
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-22 17:35 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-22 17:45 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-23 09:29 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-23 08:29 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-23 08:55 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-23 21:11 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-22 06:23 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-22 13:08 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-22 20:17 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-22 12:43 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-23 11:52 +0000
                Re: SAFEcode Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-23 13:53 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-25 10:18 +0000
                Re: SAFEcode Morris Dovey <mrdovey@iedu.com> - 2015-04-25 21:37 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-20 12:05 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-20 04:28 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-20 04:38 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-20 12:40 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-20 14:11 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-20 06:31 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-20 16:31 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode jadill33@gmail.com - 2015-04-20 09:38 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-20 22:52 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode asetofsymbols@gmail.com - 2015-04-20 11:10 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-20 22:43 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-20 22:59 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-21 09:27 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-21 15:12 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-21 07:31 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-21 16:43 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-21 08:01 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-04-21 22:29 +0000
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-21 11:09 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-21 10:13 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2015-04-21 10:22 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-21 16:51 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-22 02:52 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-21 14:44 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-21 16:58 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-22 01:11 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-21 17:31 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-22 10:09 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-22 10:50 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-22 11:12 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-22 11:37 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-22 05:54 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-22 15:31 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-22 06:48 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-22 16:29 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-22 16:13 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-22 08:22 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-22 16:25 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-22 10:35 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-22 13:24 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-23 01:18 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-23 06:11 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-23 09:36 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-22 08:38 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-22 13:04 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-22 09:52 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-22 16:23 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-22 10:28 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-22 08:16 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-22 13:53 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-22 12:45 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-22 16:44 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-21 22:58 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-22 09:53 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2015-04-21 10:15 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Martin Shobe <martin.shobe@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-21 13:57 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-21 23:01 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-21 23:46 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-22 01:49 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-22 08:32 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-22 10:02 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-21 12:06 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-21 20:18 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-21 12:30 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-21 21:30 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-21 13:39 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-21 20:21 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-22 10:24 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-22 09:46 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode gwowen <gwowen@gmail.com> - 2015-04-22 02:57 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-22 08:42 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-19 16:19 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-19 09:08 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-16 08:55 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-16 11:03 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-16 11:35 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-17 10:28 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-17 09:51 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2015-04-20 11:28 +0300
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-17 10:32 +0200
              Re: SAFEcode Bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-14 15:24 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-14 08:03 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-14 18:48 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-14 12:43 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-04-14 21:52 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-14 13:16 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-14 21:39 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-15 01:20 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-15 01:29 +0100
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-15 01:32 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-15 08:17 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-15 09:13 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-04-15 18:33 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-15 10:02 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-04-15 20:55 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-15 19:27 -0500
                Re: SAFEcode Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2015-04-20 11:53 +0300
                Re: SAFEcode Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-04-16 14:51 +1200
                Re: SAFEcode Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-04-17 02:13 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2015-04-15 08:14 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-04-14 21:02 +0100
              Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-14 08:33 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-14 08:54 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-14 11:43 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-14 12:41 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-14 13:08 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-04-14 14:02 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-04-14 15:29 -0700
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-15 10:03 +0200
                Re: SAFEcode David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-04-15 10:02 +0200
      Re: SAFEcode Phil Carmody <pc+usenet@asdf.org> - 2015-04-20 11:13 +0300
  Re: SAFEcode Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-04-14 13:03 +0100

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