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Re: question about mass in GR - black holes

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alsor@interia.pl wrote:

> W dniu niedziela, 18 marca 2018 22:58:55 UTC+1 użytkownik Thomas
> 'PointedEars' Lahn napisał:

Attribution line, not attribution novel.

>> > Any atomic energy is reduced in this way - by the gravitational
>> > redshift. Why?
>> > 
>> > Because any (atomic) energy is always: mc^2, what means it's
>> > proportional to a mass - of an atom!
>> > 
>> > [more nonsense]
>> 
>> Sadly, you are a hopeless case.
>  
> 
> What is a nonsense?
> The gravitational redshift and the gravitational clocks slow-down effect?

The latter is properly called “gravitational time dilation”.  Clocks DO NOT 
actually slow down (unless they are broken).  We have been over this
/ad nauseam/ here.
 
> The both are experimental facts, and provided in the GR also.

Both are NOT "provided in the GR also", but they are *consequences* of what 
GR has to say about the properties of spacetime.

Spouting pseudo-scientific word salad, because you actually have not the 
slightest clue about GR, you are missing the point.
 
> 1. E = E0 sqrt(1+2V) =>

That is such a nonsense, it is not even wrong.

Actually:

  E₀ = m c²

  E² = m²c⁴ + p²c²    (Energy–momentum relation)

   γ = 1∕√(1 – v²∕c²),

where

  E₀ – rest energy
  m  – mass of *moving* object
  c  – speed of light
  γ  – Lorentz factor
  v  – relative *speed* of *moving* object (*small* v)

For m ≠ 0,

   p = γ m v = m v∕√(1 – v²∕c²)

so

   E = γ m c² = γ E₀ = E₀∕√(1 − v²∕c²).

You claim:

  E' = E₀ √(1 + 2 V)

where

  V – *gravitational potential* (instead; it is a *capital* V):

      V(r⃗) = −G M∕r

      where

      G – Newtonian gravitational constant
      M – mass of *stationary* object
      r – distance from center of mass

It would follow:

  E' = E₀ √(1 + 2 V) = E₀ √(1 − 2 G M∕r)
 
Care to explain how to calculate that root?  The summands in the radicand do 
not even have the same dimensions.

In addition, the above energy–momentum relation is defined in *special* 
relativity only, where spacetime is *flat*.  In *general* relativity, energy 
(density) is a part of the energy–momentum tensor, so the relation is 
*vastly* more complex than you claim:

<https://link.springer.com/article/10.12942/lrr-2004-4>

Finally, you can NOT use concepts of *Newtonian* mechanics in *relativistic* 
context *without* making adjustments.  In particular, Newtonian mechanics 
*cannot* be used to describe any *curved* spacetime such as black holes.

> and because of that:
> 2. T = T0 / sqrt(1+2V); the slow-down effect (gravitational time
> dilation).

Nonsense.

Actually:

     T = T₀∕√(1 − 2 G M∕(r c²))

where

  T  – coordinate time interval
  T₀ – proper time interval
  G  – Newtonian gravitational constant
  M  – mass of source of gravitational field
  r  – radial coordinate of observer (distance from center of mass)
  c  – speed of light

You claim:

    T' = T₀∕√(1 + 2 V)

Actually:

  V(r⃗) = −G M∕r

It would follow:

    T' = T₀∕√(1 − 2 G M∕r) ≠ T.

Aside from the dimensions issue, you can NOT use natural units *and* simply 
ignore about the relations between and meanings of quantities because that 
is convenient.  That is NOT science, but *pseudo*-science.
 
> 1 + 2 + mc^2 =>
> 
> 3. m = m0 sqrt(1+2V);
> 
> Mass dependency on gravity!

Result: Utter nonsense.

You have it completely backwards.

Mass is a Lorentz-*invariant* quantity.

In GR, the definition of mass also is *vastly* more complex than you claim:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_in_general_relativity>


GR *actually* says:

The density of mass/energy (and momentum, and stress) in spacetime 
corresponds to the curvature of spacetime there.

Gravity is merely the observable effect of the curvature of spacetime.  It 
is observable as such only by *us* (humanoids), because we are not able to 
perceive the curvature of spacetime directly.

Objects in free fall always have trajectories that are described by the 
geodesics of spacetime.  When spacetime is locally curved, those geodesics 
are no longer straight lines.  So we observe phenomena described by *curved* 
lines, such as orbits, gravitational lensing, and black holes.

Put simply:

  “Spacetime tells matter how to move; matter tells spacetime how to curve.”
  
    —John A. Wheeler, “Geons, Black Holes, and Quantum Foam” (2000), p. 235

    [With “matter”, Wheeler is referring to particles with non-zero mass.¹]

<http://www.einstein-online.info/elementary/generalRT.html>

If you still do not understand it after watching this, you will probably 
never understand it:

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jjFjC30-4A>


My next rebuttal will not be as detailed as its necessity would prove that 
you do not *want* to learn.  You have been warned.


PointedEars
-- 
«Nec fasces, nec opes, sola artis sceptra perennant.»
(“Neither high office nor power, only the scepters of science survive.”)

  —Tycho Brahe, astronomer (1546-1601), inscription at Hven

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question about mass in GR - black holes alsor@interia.pl - 2018-03-07 14:23 -0800
  Re: question about mass in GR - black holes Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-03-08 18:02 +0100
    Re: question about mass in GR - black holes alsor@interia.pl - 2018-03-17 15:16 -0700
      Re: question about mass in GR - black holes Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-03-18 17:33 +0100
        Re: question about mass in GR - black holes Darryl Fletcher <lu@ewiwwe.tt> - 2018-03-18 17:05 +0000
          Re: question about mass in GR - black holes Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-03-18 18:08 +0100
        Re: question about mass in GR - black holes alsor@interia.pl - 2018-03-18 10:49 -0700
          Re: question about mass in GR - black holes Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-03-18 21:02 +0100
            Re: question about mass in GR - black holes alsor@interia.pl - 2018-03-18 14:24 -0700
              Re: question about mass in GR - black holes Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-03-18 22:58 +0100
                Re: question about mass in GR - black holes alsor@interia.pl - 2018-03-19 10:04 -0700
                Re: question about mass in GR - black holes Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-03-20 04:43 +0100
                Re: question about mass in GR - black holes alsor@interia.pl - 2018-03-20 12:42 -0700
                Re: question about mass in GR - black holes Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-03-20 21:03 +0100
                Re: question about mass in GR - black holes alsor@interia.pl - 2018-03-20 14:04 -0700
                Re: question about mass in GR - black holes Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-03-20 23:59 +0100
  Re: question about mass in GR - black holes Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-03-08 17:43 -0600
    Re: question about mass in GR - black holes Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-03-08 19:51 -0600
      Re: question about mass in GR - black holes Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-03-17 10:20 +0000
    Re: question about mass in GR - black holes mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-08 21:25 -0800
      Re: question about mass in GR - black holes Python <python@python.invalid> - 2018-03-09 06:31 +0100
    Re: question about mass in GR - black holes alsor@interia.pl - 2018-03-17 15:40 -0700
      Re: question about mass in GR - black holes Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-03-18 01:05 -0500
        Re: question about mass in GR - black holes Térov Balónky <iytn@yeicenlw.ik> - 2018-03-18 12:57 +0000
        Re: question about mass in GR - black holes alsor@interia.pl - 2018-03-18 10:23 -0700
          Re: question about mass in GR - black holes "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-18 10:35 -0700
            Re: question about mass in GR - black holes alsor@interia.pl - 2018-03-18 11:11 -0700
              Re: question about mass in GR - black holes "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-18 11:18 -0700
                Re: question about mass in GR - black holes "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-18 11:40 -0700
                Re: question about mass in GR - black holes "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-18 11:50 -0700
                Re: question about mass in GR - black holes "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-18 12:29 -0700
                Re: question about mass in GR - black holes alsor@interia.pl - 2018-03-18 11:43 -0700
                Re: question about mass in GR - black holes "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-18 11:45 -0700
                Re: question about mass in GR - black holes "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-18 11:44 -0700
                Re: question about mass in GR - black holes alsor@interia.pl - 2018-03-18 11:46 -0700
              Re: question about mass in GR - black holes Python <python@python.invalid> - 2018-03-18 19:40 +0100
          Re: question about mass in GR - black holes Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-03-20 19:39 -0500
            Re: question about mass in GR - black holes alsor@interia.pl - 2018-03-21 10:26 -0700
              Re: question about mass in GR - black holes Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-03-21 19:13 -0500
                Re: question about mass in GR - black holes alsor@interia.pl - 2018-03-21 17:55 -0700
                Re: question about mass in GR - black holes Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-03-22 00:08 -0500
                Re: question about mass in GR - black holes mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-03-22 00:05 -0700
                Re: question about mass in GR - black holes alsor@interia.pl - 2018-03-22 14:06 -0700
                Re: question about mass in GR - black holes "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-22 14:37 -0700
                Re: question about mass in GR - black holes "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-21 18:09 -0700
                Re: question about mass in GR - black holes alsor@interia.pl - 2018-03-21 18:19 -0700
                Re: question about mass in GR - black holes "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-21 18:43 -0700
                Re: question about mass in GR - black holes "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-21 18:46 -0700
                Re: question about mass in GR - black holes alsor@interia.pl - 2018-03-21 20:22 -0700
                Re: question about mass in GR - black holes "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-21 20:55 -0700
                Re: question about mass in GR - black holes "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-21 21:11 -0700
                Re: question about mass in GR - black holes "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-21 21:21 -0700
                Re: question about mass in GR - black holes "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-21 21:26 -0700
                Re: question about mass in GR - black holes "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-21 20:49 -0700
  Re: question about mass in GR - black holes Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-03-19 15:45 +0000
  Re: question about mass in GR - black holes numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2018-03-20 13:51 -0700
    Re: question about mass in GR - black holes Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-03-20 23:02 +0000
  Re: question about mass in GR - black holes numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2018-03-20 13:54 -0700
  Re: question about mass in GR - black holes Koobee Wublee <koobee.wublee@gmail.com> - 2018-03-21 10:40 -0700
    Re: question about mass in GR - black holes "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-03-21 11:17 -0700
    Re: question about mass in GR - black holes alsor@interia.pl - 2018-03-21 11:27 -0700
  Re: question about mass in GR - black holes numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2018-03-22 15:26 -0700
    Re: question about mass in GR - black holes alsor@interia.pl - 2018-03-29 15:25 -0700

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