Groups > sci.physics.relativity > #476747

Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp

Newsgroups	sci.physics.relativity
Date	2018-11-10 14:49 -0800
References	<441a5c12-be5e-4cb1-b598-bfc4759c5ff2@googlegroups.com> <0f0cdcf1-5f40-47b1-be0a-db935a9b58c8@googlegroups.com> <OQwFD.783616$NF7.381354@fx14.am4> <ab70be74-c378-4445-ac2f-09a0b8e271da@googlegroups.com> <OLmdnYUqyKVHd3vGnZ2dnUU7_8zNnZ2d@giganews.com>
Message-ID	<6b53c8ec-217a-429e-ae00-e3cbb2ae5da9@googlegroups.com> (permalink)
Subject	Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp
From	JanPB <filmart@gmail.com>

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On Saturday, November 10, 2018 at 6:27:44 AM UTC-8, tjrob137 wrote:
> On 11/10/18 3:33 AM, JanPB wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 10, 2018 at 12:41:20 AM UTC-8, Keith Stein wrote:
> >> The Lorentz transforms are most definitely NOT a consequence of
> >> Maxwell's Theory, as written by J.C.Maxwell.
> > 
> > It's a property of Maxwell's equations that they are invariant under the Lorentz
> > transformation. This was known before Einstein.
> 
> Hmmmm. You are confusing Maxwell's ORIGINAL THEORY with what are NOW 
> called "Maxwell's equations". The latter are a subset of the former, 
> using only 8 of his original equations and 16 of his original fields. In 
> particular we now omit his fields related to motion relative to the aether.
> 
> 	(There is considerable flexibility in how one writes these
> 	 equations, so counts of them can vary.)
> 
> Of course Maxwell's ORIGINAL THEORY has been solidly refuted, as it 
> implicitly assumes Galilean relativity; it is NOT Lorentz invariant.

Yes, I keep referring to the state of the affairs in the years just
preceding Einstein's paper, not to Maxwell's original treatise which
was commented upon by Fitzgerald:

"Maxwell's treatise is cumbered with the debris of his brilliant lines
of assault, of his entrenched camps, of his battles. Oliver Heaviside
has cleared these away, has opened up a direct route, has made a broad
road, and has explored a considerable trace of country."
[quoted after John M. Charap's book "Covariant Electrodynamics"]

I should have made it more clear.

Closer to 1905 people knew about the Lorentz invariance of the (by then)
"cleared away" equations. For example Lorentz himself goes through this
in detail in his 1904 paper "Electromagnetic phenomena in a system moving
with any velocity less than that of light", included in the standard Dover
collection "The Principle of Relativity". On pages 13-16 he shows this
invariance. The transformation looks a bit odd because it's written as
a superposition of a Galilean transformation (p. 13) followed by
the formulas (4) and (5) on p. 14. He also keeps an extra multiplicative
constant in place (called "l", Lorentz says it's of the second order in
v, hence ignorable. Einstein in his re-derivation of the transform in his
1905 paper actually gives an argument why l = 1 exactly).

--
Jan

Thread

6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp nero <oldogf@yahoo.it> - 2018-11-09 00:53 -0800
  Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-11-09 06:06 +0100
    Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-11-09 09:02 -0600
      Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-11-09 18:19 +0100
        Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-11-09 19:12 +0100
        Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Gaston Castaneda <ucpp@j2adosw.nv> - 2018-11-09 19:27 +0000
        Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog <prokaryotic.caspase.homolog@gmail.com> - 2018-11-09 12:04 -0800
        Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-11-09 19:13 -0600
    Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp nero <oldogf@yahoo.it> - 2018-11-10 01:02 -0800
      Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp nero <oldogf@yahoo.it> - 2018-11-13 00:21 -0800
        Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp nero <oldogf@yahoo.it> - 2018-11-24 01:57 -0800
  Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Edward Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> - 2018-11-09 06:24 -0800
  Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-11-09 15:04 -0800
    Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-11-10 08:41 +0000
      Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-11-10 10:02 +0100
      Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-11-10 01:33 -0800
        Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp "David (Kronos Prime) Fuller" <fuller.david@hotmail.com> - 2018-11-10 04:03 -0800
        Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-11-10 08:27 -0600
          Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Gaston Castaneda <ucpp@java2osw.np> - 2018-11-10 20:03 +0000
          Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-11-10 14:49 -0800
            Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Gaston Castaneda <ucpp@java4osw.nv> - 2018-11-11 00:39 +0000
              Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Gaston Castaneda <ucpp@java4osw.nv> - 2018-11-11 00:40 +0000
            Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-11-10 21:32 -0600
        Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Gaston Castaneda <ucpp@java2osw.np> - 2018-11-10 20:01 +0000
        Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-11-12 08:45 +0000
          Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-11-12 13:14 -0800
            Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-11-13 13:32 +0000
              Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Tom Roberts <tjroberts137@sbcglobal.net> - 2018-11-13 12:21 -0600
              Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-11-13 14:57 -0800
      Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-11-10 14:38 +0100
        Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-11-10 15:55 +0100
  Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp consequently7990662@gmail.com - 2018-11-10 14:05 -0800
  Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp consequently7990662@gmail.com - 2018-11-10 14:08 -0800
  Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp consequently7990662@gmail.com - 2018-11-10 14:09 -0800
    Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-11-11 09:22 +0100
    Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-11-11 12:14 -0800
  Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2018-11-11 11:43 -0800
  Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp carleto4157990662@gmail.com - 2018-11-11 13:04 -0800
    Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-11-12 00:55 +0100
      Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp mitchrae3323@gmail.com - 2018-11-11 16:00 -0800
        Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-11-12 02:08 +0100
  Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2018-11-11 14:14 -0800
    Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Odd Bodkin <bodkinodd@gmail.com> - 2018-11-11 23:24 +0000
  Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2018-11-13 10:09 -0800
  Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2018-11-13 10:25 -0800
  Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2018-11-13 15:12 -0800
  Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2018-11-13 16:12 -0800
  Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2018-11-13 16:19 -0800
  Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-11-14 11:45 +0000
    Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-11-15 05:05 +0100
      Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-11-15 11:35 +0000
        Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-11-15 03:51 -0800
          Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-11-15 16:31 +0000
            Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp "Dono," <sa_ge@comcast.net> - 2018-11-15 08:56 -0800
              Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp JanPB <filmart@gmail.com> - 2018-11-15 10:00 -0800
              Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-11-15 10:17 -0800
            Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-11-15 18:57 +0100
              Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-11-15 10:15 -0800
        Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Libor Striz <poutnik4REMOVEnntp@CAPITALSgmail.com> - 2018-11-15 15:34 +0100
          Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-11-15 06:37 -0800
          Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-11-15 16:46 +0000
            Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-11-15 18:54 +0100
              Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-11-16 16:02 +0000
                Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-11-16 21:48 +0100
                Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp mlwozniak@wp.pl - 2018-11-16 13:00 -0800
              Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-11-16 17:07 +0000
                Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-11-16 22:05 +0100
                Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-11-16 21:33 +0000
                Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-11-16 22:41 +0100
  Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2018-11-14 18:02 -0800
  Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2018-11-15 14:02 -0800
    Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-11-16 03:47 +0100
  Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp carleto4157990662@gmail.com - 2018-11-16 09:27 -0800
    Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-11-16 22:45 +0100
      Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Keith Stein <keithstein111@gmail.com> - 2018-11-16 22:01 +0000
        Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2018-11-16 23:15 +0100
  Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp carleto4157990662@gmail.com - 2018-11-17 11:36 -0800
  Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp carleto4157990662@gmail.com - 2018-11-17 14:37 -0800
  Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2018-11-17 14:52 -0800
  Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2018-11-17 14:53 -0800
  Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2018-11-17 14:59 -0800
  Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp carleto4157990662@gmail.com - 2018-11-18 12:15 -0800
  Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp carleto4157990662@gmail.com - 2018-11-18 12:47 -0800
  Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp carleto4157990662@gmail.com - 2018-11-19 10:13 -0800
  Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp carleto4157990662@gmail.com - 2018-11-24 17:04 -0800
  Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp consequently7990662@gmail.com - 2018-11-25 11:38 -0800
  Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp consequently7990662@gmail.com - 2018-11-26 13:41 -0800
  Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp carleto4157990662@gmail.com - 2018-11-28 13:15 -0800
  Re: 6) the inconsistency of the Michelson-Morley esp numbernumber1964@gmail.com - 2018-11-28 15:10 -0800

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