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Re: DEC

From usenet@only.tnx (Questor)
Newsgroups alt.folklore.computers
Subject Re: DEC
Organization random access
Message-ID <5f275b20.1524722@news.dslextreme.com> (permalink)
References (5 earlier) <L_AUG.195289$AN2.192375@fx46.iad> <1922456568.617821872.532416.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org> <AuEUG.195294$AN2.162013@fx46.iad> <1836069261.617827817.688943.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org> <07ce1231-6202-43d2-bfad-d21d3d304fddo@googlegroups.com>
Date 2020-08-03 00:32 +0000

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On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 02:38:12 -0700 (PDT), Terry Kennedy
<terry-groups@glaver.org> wrote:
>On Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 3:02:23 PM UTC-4, Peter Flass wrote:
>>The VAX certainly had more growth potential, maybe DEC really couldn't
>>afford to support both the VAX and the -10, at any level of support, maybe
>>the -10 people screwed up their next-generation design badly enough to make
>>it much too late to market. We've heard all those, possibly any or all are
>>correct. For sure most of the VAX people are still around, is there
>>anything like Bell's article on PDP-11 around for the VAX?

I'd say that Mr. Kennedy's recollections below are pretty much spot on.
LSG = Large Systems Group, largely responsible for high-end hardware


>DEC had 2 LSG projects going at the same time and both foundering - the VAX
>-11/790 (released as the 8600) and the 36-bit Jupiter project. They apparently
>decided to focus on the 8600, even though it didn't meet its performance
>goals (but by a smaller amount than Jupiter). By the time the 8600 project
>got told "ship it now or else" they were very very close to meeting their
>original performance goal - upgrading an 8600 to an 8650 was a simple 2 board
>swap. The "mid-life kicker" to upgrade the 8650 (which, remember, was the
>original performance target for the 8600) would likely have been the 8670
>but never got anywhere as a project.
>
>But DEC badly misjudged the 36-bit community's response to the Jupiter
>cancellation - as one university put it, "all new systems will be Unix-based
>because we will have a much wider choice of vendors to screw us".

Yep.  If you're going to have to re-write your software anyway to move to a new
machine, it opens up your choices beyond your existing vendor.  DEC did sell
VAXes to some of its PDP-10 customers, and many of those customers ran Unix
instead of VMS.


>Meanwhile, LSG continued their tradition of building ever larger systems out
>of esoteric hardware that were late to market and under-performing, like
>the VAX 9000. The blame can't be laid solely at LSG's feet - DEC upper
>management refused to believe that their in-house semiconductor group could
>fabricate a chip (the NVAX) that outperformed the 9000. And how do you tell your
>customers that just bought a hugely expensive and large computer that there
>is another model with better performance, a much smaller form factor, and
>vastly reduced power consumption? IBM cut the price of the Stretch in half
>for both existing customers and open orders (taking a loss on each one)
>nd discontinued it after all open orders had been fulfilled. DEC didn't have
>the resources to take a financial hit like that, and it would still have
>saddled the 9000 customers with oversized power-hungry boxes.
>
>In retrospect, DEC might have been better served by canceling Jupiter but
>marketing one of the 3rd party compatible 36-bit CPUs as a DEC model. This
>had been considered (and dismissed) when Jupiter was in the early planning
>stages. I guess the "we've gone this far, we may as well keep going" (AKA the
>sunk cost fallacy) convinced them to keep going long after they should have
>changed strategy.

Also there was a strong resistance by management to selling anything that wasn't
made in-house.  DEC wanted to "do it all," and be a one-stop vendor for all
computing needs.

This web page has a couple of dozen answers to the question, "why did DEC fail?"
mostly by former DEC employees.  I recommend it.  Reading all the replies will
reveal several different themes and give a clearer picture of what went wrong.
As is usually the case with a company the size of DEC, "it's complicated."

http://www.quora.com/Why-did-Digital-Equipment-Corporation-DEC-fail

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DEC Iron Spring Software <Peter_Flass@Yahoo.com> - 2020-07-24 09:38 -0700
  Re: DEC Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2020-07-24 17:12 -0300
  Re: DEC J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-07-24 17:14 -0400
    Re: DEC Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-07-24 19:43 -0700
      Re: DEC J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-07-24 23:28 -0400
    Re: DEC Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-07-25 02:06 -0700
      Re: DEC J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-07-25 05:27 -0400
        Re: DEC Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-07-25 10:58 +0100
          Re: 360 PCs was DEC John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-07-25 17:21 +0000
            Re: 360 PCs was DEC J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-07-25 13:54 -0400
              Re: 360 PCs was DEC Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-07-25 14:43 -0700
                Re: 360 PCs was DEC J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-07-25 18:05 -0400
                Re: 360 PCs was DEC Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-07-25 20:27 -0400
                Re: 360 PCs was DEC J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-07-25 21:08 -0400
                Re: 360 PCs was DEC Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-07-25 23:29 -0400
                Re: 360 PCs was DEC Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-07-25 23:30 -0400
                Re: 360 PCs was DEC J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-07-26 00:06 -0400
                Re: 360 PCs was DEC Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-08-05 06:06 +0000
                Re: 360 PCs was DEC J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-07 10:19 -0400
                Re: 360 PCs was DEC Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-08-07 20:01 +0000
                Re: wiki software, not 360 PCs was DEC John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-08-07 22:45 +0000
                Re: wiki software, not 360 PCs was DEC J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-08 13:35 -0400
                Re: wiki software, not 360 PCs was DEC Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-08-09 15:33 +0000
                Re: wiki software, not 360 PCs was DEC J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-09 13:16 -0400
                Re: wiki software, not 360 PCs was DEC Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-09 15:00 -0400
                Re: wiki software, not 360 PCs was DEC J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-09 18:35 -0400
                Re: wiki software, not 360 PCs was DEC maus <maus@dmaus.org> - 2020-08-10 23:10 +0000
                Re: wiki software, not 360 PCs was DEC Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2020-08-09 19:18 +0000
                Re: wiki software, not 360 PCs was DEC J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-09 18:40 -0400
                Re: wiki software, not 360 PCs was DEC Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-09 15:30 -0700
                Re: 360 PCs was DEC Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-07-25 18:39 -0700
                Re: 360 PCs was DEC Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-07-25 18:43 -0700
                Re: 360 PCs was DEC Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-07-25 23:32 -0400
                Re: 360 PCs was DEC John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-07-26 21:45 +0000
                Re: 360 PCs was DEC J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-07-26 18:01 -0400
                Re: 360 PCs was DEC Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-07-27 06:38 +0100
                Re: 360 PCs was DEC John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-07-26 01:24 +0000
                Re: 360 PCs was DEC Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-07-25 18:39 -0700
                Re: 360 PCs was DEC Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-07-26 20:18 +0000
            Re: 360 PCs was DEC Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-07-25 19:39 +0100
        Re: DEC Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-07-25 12:50 -0700
  Re: DEC Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-07-25 02:26 -0700
  Re: DEC usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-07-26 19:23 +0000
    Re: DEC Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-07-26 21:05 +0000
    Re: DEC Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-07-26 16:23 -0700
      Re: DEC J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-07-26 21:24 -0400
        Re: DEC Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-07-27 11:42 -0700
      Re: DEC archaeology John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-07-27 02:41 +0000
        Re: DEC archaeology Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2020-07-27 07:37 +0100
          Re: DEC archaeology Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-07-27 07:10 +0000
            Re: DEC archaeology Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-07-27 09:03 +0100
              Re: DEC archaeology Michael LeVine <mlevinespmfltr@redshift.com> - 2020-07-27 02:09 -0700
                Re: DEC archaeology Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-07-27 11:27 +0100
              Origin of Niven/Pournelle quips (was: DEC archaeology) Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-07-27 12:22 +0000
                Re: Origin of Niven/Pournelle quips (was: DEC archaeology) Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2020-07-27 20:51 -0400
                Re: Origin of Niven/Pournelle quips (was: DEC archaeology) Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-07-28 06:02 +0100
                Re: Origin of Niven/Pournelle quips (was: DEC archaeology) Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-07-28 08:29 +0000
                Re: Origin of Niven/Pournelle quips (was: DEC archaeology) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-07-28 17:30 +0000
                Re: Origin of Niven/Pournelle quips (was: DEC archaeology) djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2020-07-28 18:18 +0000
                Re: Origin of Niven/Pournelle quips (was: DEC archaeology) Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-07-28 19:57 +0000
                Re: Origin of Niven/Pournelle quips (was: DEC archaeology) Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-07-28 21:32 +0100
                Re: Origin of Niven/Pournelle quips (was: DEC archaeology) djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) - 2020-07-28 21:34 +0000
                Re: Origin of Niven/Pournelle quips (was: DEC archaeology) J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-07-28 18:33 -0400
                Re: Origin of Niven/Pournelle quips (was: DEC archaeology) Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2020-07-28 20:55 +0100
          Re: DEC archaeology John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-07-27 14:53 +0000
            Re: DEC archaeology drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2020-07-27 11:30 -0500
            Re: DEC archaeology scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-07-27 16:37 +0000
              Re: DEC archaeology drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2020-07-28 10:24 -0500
                Re: DEC archaeology scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-07-28 15:59 +0000
        Re: DEC archaeology Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-07-27 11:42 -0700
          Re: DEC archaeology J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-07-27 18:47 -0400
          Re: DEC archaeology Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-07-27 17:43 -0700
      Re: DEC usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-07-28 03:21 +0000
        Re: DEC Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-07-28 17:30 +0000
        Re: ou sont les ordinateurs d'antan, was DEC John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-07-28 20:27 +0000
          Re: ou sont les ordinateurs d'antan, was DEC J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-07-28 18:53 -0400
            Re: ou sont les ordinateurs d'antan, was DEC Gareth Evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> - 2020-07-29 10:36 +0100
              Re: ou sont les ordinateurs d'antan, was DEC Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2020-08-02 12:55 +0200
                Re: ou sont les ordinateurs d'antan, was DEC J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-02 12:49 -0400
            Re: ou sont les ordinateurs d'antan, was DEC Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-07-29 14:08 -0700
          Re: ou sont les ordinateurs d'antan, was DEC Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-07-29 14:04 -0700
        Re: DEC Louis Krupp <lkrupp@invalid.pssw.com.invalid> - 2020-07-30 03:49 -0600
          Re: DEC scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-07-30 14:41 +0000
            Re: DEC Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-07-30 10:12 -0700
              Re: DEC scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-07-30 18:40 +0000
                Re: DEC Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-07-30 12:02 -0700
                Re: DEC Terry Kennedy <terry-groups@glaver.org> - 2020-07-31 02:38 -0700
                Re: DEC large computers John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-07-31 20:21 +0000
                Re: DEC large computers Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-07-31 23:23 +0000
                Re: DEC large computers J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-07-31 21:13 -0400
                Re: DEC large computers Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-08-01 10:39 +0000
                Re: vectors, was DEC large computers John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-08-01 02:21 +0000
                Re: vectors, was DEC large computers Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-08-01 11:14 +0000
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 robin.vowels@gmail.com - 2020-07-31 20:30 -0700
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-01 00:00 -0400
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 robin.vowels@gmail.com - 2020-08-01 02:20 -0700
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-01 07:00 -0700
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 robin.vowels@gmail.com - 2020-08-01 08:18 -0700
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-01 11:52 -0400
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-02 21:58 +0000
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-02 18:50 -0400
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-03 18:23 +0000
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-03 13:34 -0700
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-08-01 00:55 -0700
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 robin.vowels@gmail.com - 2020-08-01 02:27 -0700
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-08-01 17:27 +0000
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-01 12:11 -0700
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-08-01 19:56 +0000
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2020-08-01 20:18 +0000
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-08-01 23:42 +0000
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 robin.vowels@gmail.com - 2020-08-01 20:32 -0700
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 Gerard Schildberger <gerard46@rrt.net> - 2020-08-02 12:58 -0700
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-01 16:28 -0400
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 David Lesher <wb8foz@panix.com> - 2020-08-02 20:42 +0000
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 robin.vowels@gmail.com - 2020-08-01 20:27 -0700
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-08-02 00:28 -0700
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> - 2020-08-02 08:01 +0000
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-08-03 16:47 -0700
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-08-03 19:45 -0700
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> - 2020-08-03 21:00 -0600
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2020-08-02 22:45 +0000
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-03 07:45 -0700
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 "Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@127.0.0.1> - 2020-08-01 08:24 +0000
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 robin.vowels@gmail.com - 2020-08-01 02:30 -0700
                Re: IBM models 91, 195 & CDC 7600 robin.vowels@gmail.com - 2020-08-01 02:34 -0700
                Re: DEC large computers Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-08-01 00:51 -0700
                Re: DEC large computers robin.vowels@gmail.com - 2020-08-01 02:23 -0700
                Jupiter alternatives [was Re: DEC] Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2020-07-31 21:16 -0400
                Re: Jupiter alternatives [was Re: DEC] Robert Swindells <rjs@fdy2.co.uk> - 2020-08-01 01:56 +0000
                Re: Jupiter alternatives [was Re: DEC] Adam Sampson <ats@offog.org> - 2020-08-01 15:59 +0100
                Re: Jupiter alternatives [was Re: DEC] Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2020-08-01 22:09 -0400
                Re: Jupiter alternatives [was Re: DEC] Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2020-08-01 22:07 -0400
                Re: DEC usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-08-03 00:32 +0000
                Re: DEC Terry Kennedy <terry-groups@glaver.org> - 2020-08-02 23:54 -0700
                Re: DEC Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-03 07:45 -0700
                Re: DEC robin.vowels@gmail.com - 2020-08-03 09:16 -0700
                Re: DEC Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-08-03 10:10 -0700
                Re: DEC Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-03 10:35 -0700
                Re: DEC Terry Kennedy <terry-groups@glaver.org> - 2020-08-03 11:28 -0700
                Re: DEC Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-03 21:26 +0000
                Re: DEC Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-08-03 16:38 -0700
                Re: DEC Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-03 21:44 -0400
                Re: DEC Terry Kennedy <terry-groups@glaver.org> - 2020-08-03 23:55 -0700
                Re: DEC Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2020-08-04 08:05 -0400
                Re: DEC J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2020-08-04 08:59 -0400
                Re: DEC Terry Kennedy <terry-groups@glaver.org> - 2020-08-04 06:29 -0700
                Re: DEC Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-04 07:48 -0700
                Re: DEC Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> - 2020-08-05 04:13 +0000
                Re: DEC robin.vowels@gmail.com - 2020-08-04 22:45 -0700
                Re: DEC JimP <chucktheouch@gmail.com> - 2020-08-05 12:33 -0500
                Re: DEC "Kerr-Mudd,John" <notsaying@127.0.0.1> - 2020-08-05 19:31 +0000
                Re: DEC Terry Kennedy <terry-groups@glaver.org> - 2020-08-04 22:57 -0700
                Re: DEC Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> - 2020-08-05 08:13 +0000
                Re: DEC Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> - 2020-08-05 10:58 -0700
                Re: DEC drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2020-08-05 13:28 -0500
                Re: DEC Terry Kennedy <terry-groups@glaver.org> - 2020-08-06 16:21 -0700
                Re: DEC Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-03 18:23 +0000
                Re: DEC Terry Kennedy <terry-groups@glaver.org> - 2020-08-03 11:31 -0700
                Re: DEC danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com> - 2020-08-03 18:38 +0000
                Re: DEC "m. thompson" <michael.99.thompson@gmail.com> - 2020-08-04 05:38 -0700
                Re: DEC Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2020-08-04 18:54 +0000
                Re: DEC usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-08-03 00:32 +0000
                Re: DEC Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> - 2020-07-30 13:29 -0700
          Re: DEC usenet@only.tnx (Questor) - 2020-07-30 20:27 +0000

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