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Groups > comp.lang.c > #77262

Re: Objective C

From James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net>
Newsgroups comp.lang.c
Subject Re: Objective C
Date 2015-11-27 12:38 -0500
Organization Self
Message-ID <56589500.3090306@verizon.net> (permalink)
References (11 earlier) <m4k05bdossoe7criehdedlhgfpv1lml9rp@4ax.com> <ln7flb8u7t.fsf@kst-u.example.com> <n2qvdu$gqi$1@dont-email.me> <lnegfi6gyc.fsf@kst-u.example.com> <5658851e.13360281@news.xs4all.nl>

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On 11/27/2015 11:42 AM, Richard Bos wrote:
...
> It sounds too much like saying that it's not dangerous to cross the
> highway on foot. What's dangerous is getting hit by a truck! If only you
> can prove that there will be no truck coming, you'll be just fine. Well,
> yes, but I'd still prefer children to be taught not to run across the
> highway, or any other road.
> Similarly, it's true that accessing a different union member does not
> _in itself_ have undefined behaviour. It's also true that there are
> cases (including common ones) where you can prove that the result is
> also defined. Nevertheless, it's still true that the _general_ result of
> re-interpreting bytes does have undefined behaviour unless explicit
> proof to the contrary in that particular case exists.
> 
> In other words: accessing different union members does not have
> undefined behaviour, but the general case does _cause_ undefined
> behaviour further down the line. Exceptions exist and may be many, but
> (except for unsigned char) are themselves unportable.

Virtually every case where someone deliberately writes such code
corresponds to a legitimate exception. No one writes such code unless
they have some expectations about what should happen, and those
expectations don't come out of nowhere: there are usually systems where
those expectations are valid (though it's not at all uncommon for the
writer of code to think that such systems are more nearly universal than
they actually are). That's what I meant by saying it "corresponds to a
legitimate exception" rather than "is a legitimate exception". If the
writer expected the code to work in a wider domain than is actually
justified, it's not a legitimate exception. However, if you restrict the
use of such code to those platforms where those expectations are valid,
the implementation-defined representations of the two types combine with
6.5.2.3p3 to fully justify relying upon those expectations in that
restricted domain.

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Thread

Objective C Alla _ <modelling.data@gmail.com> - 2015-11-10 09:10 -0800
  Re: Objective C "Rick C. Hodgin" <rick.c.hodgin@gmail.com> - 2015-11-10 09:16 -0800
  Re: Objective C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-10 17:17 +0000
  Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-10 09:32 -0800
    Re: Objective C Mark Storkamp <mstorkamp@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-10 11:38 -0600
  Re: Objective C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-11-10 12:36 -0500
    Re: Objective C Alla _ <modelling.data@gmail.com> - 2015-11-10 11:15 -0800
      Re: Objective C Richard Heathfield <rjh@cpax.org.uk> - 2015-11-10 21:51 +0000
        Re: Objective C Alla _ <modelling.data@gmail.com> - 2015-11-10 23:13 -0800
      Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-13 16:01 -0800
        Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-14 01:07 +0000
          Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-14 06:26 -0800
            Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-14 22:22 +0000
              Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-14 15:46 -0800
                Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-15 01:47 +0000
                Re: Objective C BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-11-15 10:43 +0000
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-15 13:19 -0800
            Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-14 15:43 -0800
            Re: Objective C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-15 23:50 +0100
              Re: Objective C gazelle@shell.xmission.com (Kenny McCormack) - 2015-11-16 00:05 +0000
              Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-15 19:10 -0800
                Re: Objective C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-16 09:11 +0100
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-16 11:57 -0800
                Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-16 20:38 +0000
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-16 13:20 -0800
                Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-16 22:28 +0000
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-16 15:33 -0800
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-16 15:56 -0800
                Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-17 01:43 +0000
                Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-17 01:21 +0000
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-16 18:11 -0800
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-16 20:12 -0800
                Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-19 00:59 +0000
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-18 22:46 -0800
                Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-19 14:25 +0000
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-19 07:58 -0800
                Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-19 22:13 +0000
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-19 15:29 -0800
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-27 08:44 -0800
                Re: Objective C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-17 01:26 +0000
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-16 21:48 -0600
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-16 20:27 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-17 13:58 -0600
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-17 12:28 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-18 13:00 -0600
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-18 12:31 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-18 16:43 -0600
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-18 15:57 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-19 19:09 -0600
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-19 19:05 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-20 15:00 -0600
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-20 15:30 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-22 17:11 -0600
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-22 15:53 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-23 13:51 -0600
                Re: Objective C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-11-24 12:00 +0000
                Re: Objective C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-17 10:26 +0100
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-17 06:20 -0800
                Re: Objective C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-17 16:41 +0100
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-17 12:08 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-17 16:27 -0600
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-17 14:55 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-18 13:59 -0600
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-18 13:06 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-24 14:24 -0600
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-24 15:11 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-26 17:02 -0600
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-27 07:26 -0800
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-18 21:56 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-22 02:17 -0600
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-22 07:16 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-26 17:11 -0600
                Re: Objective C Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-22 19:09 +0000
                Re: Objective C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-17 23:28 -0600
                Re: Objective C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-18 15:33 +0100
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-18 23:06 -0800
                Re: Objective C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-19 09:12 +0100
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-19 09:25 -0800
                Re: Objective C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-19 21:06 +0100
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-20 13:49 -0800
                Re: Objective C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-21 05:01 -0600
                Re: Objective C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-21 05:09 -0600
                Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-21 03:31 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-21 17:43 -0600
                Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-21 16:00 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-22 01:12 -0600
                Re: Objective C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-11-27 16:42 +0000
                Re: Objective C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-11-27 12:38 -0500
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-27 11:09 -0800
                Re: Objective C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-11-21 19:06 -0500
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-21 17:00 -0800
                Re: Objective C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-22 14:44 +0000
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-22 01:55 -0600
                Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-22 00:03 -0800
                Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-22 10:18 +0000
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-23 03:21 -0800
                Re: Objective C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-11-22 10:53 -0500
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-22 20:28 -0600
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-22 18:52 -0800
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-23 11:58 -0600
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-23 15:24 -0800
                Re: Objective C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-11-23 09:46 -0500
                Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-23 08:13 -0800
                Re: Objective C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-11-23 12:04 -0500
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-23 11:52 -0600
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-23 16:05 -0800
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-24 09:09 -0800
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-12-08 08:48 -0800
                Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-12-08 10:40 -0800
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-12-09 12:34 -0800
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-08 10:50 -0800
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-12-09 12:42 -0800
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-12-09 13:38 -0800
                Re: Objective C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-12-10 19:54 +0000
                Re: Objective C David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2015-12-06 08:02 -0500
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-22 14:36 -0800
                Re: Objective C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-23 00:41 -0600
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-23 07:39 -0800
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-22 14:23 -0800
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-17 10:24 -0800
                Re: Objective C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-18 15:40 +0100
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-20 16:02 -0800
                Re: Objective C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-21 15:53 +0100
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-21 08:58 -0800
                Re: Objective C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-22 22:14 +0100
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-23 03:39 -0800
                Re: Objective C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-11-23 13:24 +0000
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-26 09:39 -0800
                Re: Objective C Robert Wessel <robertwessel2@yahoo.com> - 2015-11-26 13:16 -0600
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-26 12:25 -0800
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-27 14:34 -0800
                Re: Objective C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-26 12:39 -0800
                Re: Objective C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-11-27 16:43 +0000
                Re: Objective C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-27 09:29 -0800
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-27 14:18 -0800
                Re: Objective C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-23 22:35 +0000
                Re: Objective C James Kuyper <jameskuyper@verizon.net> - 2015-11-23 17:40 -0500
                Re: Objective C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-24 05:35 +0000
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-25 12:15 -0800
                Re: Objective C glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-25 22:49 +0000
                Re: Objective C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-11-27 16:44 +0000
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-27 14:03 -0800
                Re: Objective C Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-29 09:29 +0000
                Re: Objective C Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-22 19:01 +0000
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-23 07:31 -0800
                Re: Objective C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-23 07:43 -0800
                Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-23 08:17 -0800
                Re: Objective C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-23 17:34 +0100
                Re: Objective C Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-23 22:02 +0000
                Re: Objective C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-24 10:12 +0100
                Re: Objective C Tim Rentsch <txr@alumni.caltech.edu> - 2015-11-27 08:39 -0800
          Re: Objective C Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2015-11-14 18:24 +0000
        Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-14 12:23 -0800
          Re: Objective C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-14 12:36 -0800
            Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-14 13:13 -0800
              Re: Objective C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-14 14:04 -0800
                Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-14 14:15 -0800
                Re: Objective C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-14 14:29 -0800
                Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-14 15:39 -0800
                Re: Objective C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-14 16:37 -0800
                Re: Objective C Ian Collins <ian-news@hotmail.com> - 2015-11-15 13:46 +1300
                Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-15 02:06 +0000
                Re: Objective C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-15 03:25 -0800
                Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-15 12:56 +0000
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-15 07:53 -0600
                Re: Objective C Stephen Sprunk <stephen@sprunk.org> - 2015-11-15 07:19 -0600
                Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-15 13:29 +0000
                Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-15 10:56 -0800
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-15 14:35 -0800
                Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-15 16:52 -0800
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-15 19:49 -0800
                Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-16 11:02 +0000
                Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-16 10:36 -0800
                Re: Objective C David Thompson <dave.thompson2@verizon.net> - 2015-12-06 08:03 -0500
                Re: Objective C Melzzzzz <mel@zzzzz.com> - 2015-11-16 02:01 +0100
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-15 19:34 -0800
                Re: Objective C Chad <cdalten@gmail.com> - 2015-11-15 19:54 -0800
                Re: Objective C raltbos@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) - 2015-11-17 22:36 +0000
                Re: Objective C supercat@casperkitty.com - 2015-11-17 15:27 -0800
                Re: Objective C Malcolm McLean <malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com> - 2015-11-17 21:15 -0800
          Re: Objective C Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2015-11-14 22:08 +0000
      Re: Objective C fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> - 2015-11-27 14:36 -0800
  Re: Objective C David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2015-11-10 19:03 +0100
    Re: Objective C Keith Thompson <kst-u@mib.org> - 2015-11-10 10:50 -0800

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